Soap vs Syndet: Please don't shoot the messenger.

[Francis]

Please don't shoot me for posting this, but I really am curious as to what many of you would think about the following information. I was just doing some research as to why my apparently well balanced (according to soapcal.net) soap would be so uncomfortably drying, and I came across the following information.
Any thoughts on this? TIA.

P. S. - So sorry, but I don't know how to post this link properly without making the width of this page larger. Would a moderator fix this for me please?

http://books.google.com/books?id=RQ...g bars on skin structure and function&f=false

http://health.howstuffworks.com/skin-ca ... p-bar4.htm

Last but not the least, in regard to syndet:
Dr. Ellen Marmur of The Mount Sinai Medical Center writes in her book Simple Skin Beauty:
"Often referred to as "syndet bars" or "soap-free" soaps, these use synthetic - and usually milder - surfactants such as sodium cocyl isethionate (which is derived from coconuts) or sodium palmitate. Since they utilize less alkaline salts in their surfactants, these have a much lower pH, which makes them less irritating. Dove, the very first syndet bar introduced in 1955, is made primarily from sodium lauroyl isethionate but contains sodium tallowate and palmitate too. Many liquid facial cleansers use only synthetic surfactants (such as sodium laureth sulfate, the prime detergent in Clinique Liquid Facial Soap)."

 

[jarvan]

Interesting article.

I make soap and syndets and I have to say they both have their merits.

Take what I say with a grain of salt as it's my own personal opinion.

I believe soap to be much more economical to produce due to the cost of relative ease of finding the ingredients on a store shelf (for the most part). In addition, soap can be superfatted to counteract any harshness, aid in soothing dry skin by adding various ingredients (notice I did NOT say cure or treat). Though the use of an alkaline product can lead to a temporary disruption of the skin's acid mantle, it's not likely to cause damage to the skin if made well to begin with. It comes down to what's used to make the soap.

I believe Syndet bars have their place in bathing as well. It is easy to control the pH of the bar to achieve a more neutral pH whereas with a lye production, it will always be alkaline. There are folks who have a "lye" phobia (because they likely don't understand the fact that it's no longer "lye" after it's reacted with the oils when making traditional soap). For those individuals, bars of synthetic detergent aka syndet bars can be formulated to include all sorts of skin-loving fatty acids and oils. For the average hobbyist, they are pretty cost-prohibitive as almost every ingredient is special-ordered from several suppliers and cannot be obtained locally in most instances.

Harsh ingredients will make a harsh product, plain and simple.

As with anything we make to put on our skin, it can be made poorly and have high potential to wreck our skin. Or, it can be made wisely by selecting skin-loving ingredients.

We don't need research to tell us that, and research can be skewed by the person footing the bill to do it. I put little stock into such blatant statements as that with soap vs. syndet.

Anyone else with differing thoughts?

 

[Fragola]

I've also read such articles and also applied them onto my skin and my conclusion sofar (both theoretical and practical) is that the harshness of a properly designed cleaning product is largely correlated to its cleansing power and less to other matters like the pH.

Somewhere else I read that skin doesn't really have pH, only sweat does, which is acidic and can be irritating. Common sense would say that you need an alkaline product to neutralize that acidity.

Soap is largely designed to complement water which is meant to cure and treat dirt. Put emphasis on water and use the cleaning product in moderate amounts without rubbing it hard into your skin.

Like it was said above, soap does not need to be harsh and as long as you don't abuse it's cleaning power, you'll be rewarded with a clean and healthy skin.

 

[judymoody]

I don't make syndet "soap" but I do make syndet shampoo and conditioner (in both solid and liquid form) and they are both great for my hair. I have read about making syndet bars on other forums for specific uses like acne prone skin.

I saw your other post about CP soap being drying for your skin. I SF at 8-10% and it does not dry out my skin and I live in an arid climate.

Is it possible that you might be allergic to one of the oils in your recipe(s)? I have to go back and look but I know many people are sensitive to shea or mango butter.

If you are interested in making your own syndet bars, the herbarie, Ingredients to Die For and lotioncrafters are good places to look for supplies. You might also want to consult the blog by "swiftcraftymonkey" called Point of Interest. She formulates with syndets quite extensively.

Good luck!

 

[carebear]

Nothing wrong with detergents, and for some those kinds of "soaps" are best. The pH is less alkaline and that's important for some people. And less soap scum which is something people care about. Detergents can be less polluting - soap in streams kills fish (tho there are easy ways around that).

I find that the CP soaps are gentler to my skin. We seem to have some sort of family allergy to commercial syndets - I'm sure it's not an across the board "I'm allergic to detergents" because the list is long and the chemistry not simple - but I've not narrowed it down and am not particularly motivated to do so. We do better with CP. Plus I like that I can customize it.

Bottom line - neither is "better" but each has it's positives.

 

[Francis]

Nothing wrong with detergents, and for some those kinds of "soaps" are best. The pH is less alkaline and that's important for some people. And less soap scum which is something people care about. Detergents can be less polluting - soap in streams kills fish (tho there are easy ways around that).

I find that the CP soaps are gentler to my skin. We seem to have some sort of family allergy to commercial syndets - I'm sure it's not an across the board "I'm allergic to detergents" because the list is long and the chemistry not simple - but I've not narrowed it down and am not particularly motivated to do so. We do better with CP. Plus I like that I can customize it.

Bottom line - neither is "better" but each has it's positives.

Carebear, from your other posts, it seems like you have very dry skin, too. Do you mind sharing with me as to what type of CP formulation ended up being the holy grail for you? Was it a castile soap? I am not asking for the specific recipe, but just a bit of a guidance. I find making CP soaps so deeply satisfying and enjoyable, so I am hell-bent on finding a recipe for my extremely parched skin. Thanks a ton.

 

[jarvan]

Here's a few oils you could superfat with (at cooler temp for some because they don't like heat):

jojoba, olive, soybean, rice bran, sunflower, macadamia, meadowfoam seed, lard, apricot kernel

These are all skin-loving/conditioning/moisturizing oils. You can just use SoapCalc to work up a recipe. You'll want to keep your cleansing low and your moisturizing on the higher end if you have really dry skin.

A castile soap would be your friend.

 

[carebear]

My formulas tend to have a high super-fat. For my body I use 75% coconut oil and 25% "other" (cocoa butter is a good choice), with a 15-20% super-fat. For my face I use a formula with coconut, palm kernel, shea butter, safflower, and olive (in no particular order) and I super-fat at about 10%.

Then I use lotion. Don't expect soap to moisturize. By it's very nature, it's function is to remove oils.

 

[jarvan]

Then I use lotion. Don't expect soap to moisturize. By it's very nature, it's function is to remove oils.

Carebear, you stole the words from my mouth!

 

[Francis]

Thank you for your suggestions, I really appreciate it. I'll try them and see how it works.

 

[alabama49]

I'm a little confused here-if soap removes the oil from your face, why are we using good oils like, olive, almond, avacado, & butters in our soaps? Isnt that just kind of a waste? I was under the assumption that the soap actually moisturized your skin? Sounds like its the opposite.

 

[IrishLass]

I'm a little confused here-if soap removes the oil from your face, why are we using good oils like, olive, almond, avacado, & butters in our soaps? Isnt that just kind of a waste?

No, not necessarily. Oils/fats are are an absolute must for the lye to react with in order to be able produce the soap in the first place. Now, you don't necessarily need to use those particular oils that you mentioned, but you cannot make soap (true soap) without oils and lye (and water).

The particular oils that soapers choose to use in their soap are chosen for their fatty acid makeup and what each acid contributes to the finished soap. Some oils are rich in acids that contribute to bubbly lather, others to more creamy-type lather, and some cleanse either more or less gently than others, etc..... And some oils, such as avocado and shea have lots of unsaponifiable properties and are able to make a soap feel less drying to the skin.

I was under the assumption that the soap actually moisturized your skin? Sounds like its the opposite.

No- soap doesn't moisturize your skin (no matter what those Dove commercials say :wink: )- soap is a cleanser. Here is a great article that explains what soap does- how it cleans:
http://chemistry.about.com/od/cleanerch ... cleans.htm

However- when we make our own soap, there are things we can do to control how strongly or gently it cleanses. We do that by studying the different fatty acid profiles of the different oils/fats and formulate our recipes accordingly.

IrishLass

 

[kbuska]

I stick with soap because syndetmakingforum.com just doesn't have the people I like there.

 

[saltydog]

I stick with soap because syndetmakingforum.com just doesn't have the people I like there.

Ken, i think i peed a lil!

 

[kbuska]

I try!

What's with the new avatar? Looks very interesting

 

[saltydog]

I try!

What's with the new avatar? Looks very interesting

Francis, I'm so sorry, really quick diversion:
it's an album cover by the Black Keys.
Ok carry on- very interesting thread, I was enjoying it until Ken made me lol

 

[kbuska]

sure... blame me for everything...

 

[PrairieCraft]

I've got to jump in on this new avatar thing. I LOVE the Black Keys. It's taking me a while to remember that it is you when I see it though.

 

[saltydog]

I've got to jump in on this new avatar thing. I LOVE the Black Keys. It's taking me a while to remember that it is you when I see it though.

Another instance where I wish there was a 'like' button!..and me too, i've loved them for years . I'm happy they've become so popular, good for them
I know what you mean tho, when someone changes their avatar it always throws me off.