I respectfully disagree with this. My typical soaping temps are in the 90-95 range and I don't have a problem with false trace. I've often soaped at 80-85 without issues as well. A typical recipe for me is also 60% hard oils/butters.
Soap soft and olive oil color in mold after 24 hours
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"...it is absolutely essential, in my humble opinion, to have both the oils and lye solution at the minimum of approximately 125-130° F. Some members here will disagree with me, that's their prerogative. ...
I think the other posters are correct in pointing out that an "absolutely essential" requirement is not the same as a person's opinion, whether humble or not. The ideal temperature range for your soap making is not an essential requirement for everyone else's soap making, as many of us can attest. For example, I use a high percentage of lard and tallow in my soap and my soap batter temps typically are in the 95 to 105 F range.
"...Trace is the beginning of an exothermic reaction which will lead to the gel phase which is an endothermic reaction....
Trace is not the beginning of saponification. The saponification reaction begins immediately when the lye is blended with the fats.
If you monitor the temperature of your soap batter from the very beginning, you'll observe there is a 1-3F / 1-2C rise in temp shortly after the lye solution and fats are mixed together. This temp rise occurs within the first minute when I make soap. This temperature rise cannot happen from simple mixing alone -- it is happening due to the heat released from saponification.
Trace is a visible sign the soap batter is at a stable chemical emulsion because enough soap has formed in the batter to act as a chemical emulsifier. This means the soap maker doesn't have to mechanically stir the batter any more to keep it fully mixed. Trace, by definition, cannot be when the saponification reaction is starting, because there has to be soap present in the batter for the signs of trace to occur.
What we call "gel" is a physical phase change, much like ice melting into water. It's not a chemical reaction, whether endothermic or exothermic. The saponification reaction, which is indeed an exothermic chemical reaction, is the source of the energy that causes this physical change. But I can cause soap to go into gel simply by heating the soap -- soap does not need to be in the middle of a chemical reaction to go into gel.
"...your lye to water ratio is quite high....
The convention is to talk about "water to lye" ratio, not the other way around. If you don't want to confuse others, you might use this convention along with the rest of us.
"... Experienced soap makers would call this a "water discount", doing this method will reduce or even stop the gel phase of saponification. This method is usually used when using ingredients such as goat milk...."
"Water discount" is a concept that has never served a truly useful purpose. I'm an experienced soap maker and I actively try to discourage people from worrying about "water discount" and "full water" and all that.
Using a higher lye concentration (less water in proportion to the NaOH) does raise the temperature at which the soap will go into gel, but it does NOT prevent the soap from going into gel. Anyone who uses lye concentration from 33% to 40% will be able to learn about this. Adjusting the lye concentration to suit the soap and the soap making technique is a useful skill that's definitely not limited to milk soap. It's not hard for beginners to use.
I think the other posters are correct in pointing out that an "absolutely essential" requirement is not the same as a person's opinion, whether humble or not. The ideal temperature range for your soap making is not an essential requirement for everyone else's soap making, as many of us can attest. For example, I use a high percentage of lard and tallow in my soap and my soap batter temps typically are in the 95 to 105 F range.
"...Trace is the beginning of an exothermic reaction which will lead to the gel phase which is an endothermic reaction....
Trace is not the beginning of saponification. The saponification reaction begins immediately when the lye is blended with the fats.
If you monitor the temperature of your soap batter from the very beginning, you'll observe there is a 1-3F / 1-2C rise in temp shortly after the lye solution and fats are mixed together. This temp rise occurs within the first minute when I make soap. This temperature rise cannot happen from simple mixing alone -- it is happening due to the heat released from saponification.
Trace is a visible sign the soap batter is at a stable chemical emulsion because enough soap has formed in the batter to act as a chemical emulsifier. This means the soap maker doesn't have to mechanically stir the batter any more to keep it fully mixed. Trace, by definition, cannot be when the saponification reaction is starting, because there has to be soap present in the batter for the signs of trace to occur.
What we call "gel" is a physical phase change, much like ice melting into water. It's not a chemical reaction, whether endothermic or exothermic. The saponification reaction, which is indeed an exothermic chemical reaction, is the source of the energy that causes this physical change. But I can cause soap to go into gel simply by heating the soap -- soap does not need to be in the middle of a chemical reaction to go into gel.
"...your lye to water ratio is quite high....
The convention is to talk about "water to lye" ratio, not the other way around. If you don't want to confuse others, you might use this convention along with the rest of us.
"... Experienced soap makers would call this a "water discount", doing this method will reduce or even stop the gel phase of saponification. This method is usually used when using ingredients such as goat milk...."
"Water discount" is a concept that has never served a truly useful purpose. I'm an experienced soap maker and I actively try to discourage people from worrying about "water discount" and "full water" and all that.
Using a higher lye concentration (less water in proportion to the NaOH) does raise the temperature at which the soap will go into gel, but it does NOT prevent the soap from going into gel. Anyone who uses lye concentration from 33% to 40% will be able to learn about this. Adjusting the lye concentration to suit the soap and the soap making technique is a useful skill that's definitely not limited to milk soap. It's not hard for beginners to use.
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Agree with all the rest, but who will argue with success? So if that's what works for you keep soaping! But I am a low temperature soaper and have been for 16 years, not likely to change.
Die Fledermaus
New Member
Why are you so aggressive toward this member? They're trying to help someone and now being attacked. The Soap Queen website suggests the 120 to 130 range, so the suggestion is not out of line. I have done those temps and never had a batch overheat or separate.
This poster in their opinon thought it to be "absolutely esential"... maybe to help the new person out.
None of us are really experts, I think Nibiru2020 was just trying to be helpful. It's apparent that you hadn't chimed in until that post appeared.
So you are noobie of two years and such. This nibiru2020 seems to have been doing it longer than 2 years.
There are many ways to get to the same path, it just takes somewhat to be directed there kinda differntly.
The person who started the thread was appreciatve of the suggestions made. these last few posts seem to be attacking or being stronly correctve
At least you seem to be respectful toward the poster;. we all need to remember that some prefer to begin blending or stirring at differnet tempsaturs
"DeeAnna, post: 879147, member: 9248"]
"...Trace is the beginning of an exothermic reaction which will lead to the gel phase which is an endothermic reaction....
Trace is not the beginning of saponification. The saponification reaction begins immediately when the lye is blended with the fats.
Why are correcting this when the poster didn't even state that to begin with? teh poster was explaining what the process of saponification is and here you twisted it all around."
Looks like one person really tries to help out the OP, the OP appreciates and thanks Nbiru2020 for the help and suggestions.... THEN
Several of the "KARENS" on the website jump in because they re too late to the party... as usual. I seen it on other website forums they loork in the backgrond and wait to add the two peenies worth.
Just because a member has a lot of postings or whatever does not mean there any smarter and such over the rest.
Like the progessivees - week points measn inturrpt and shout more.
Yes, the poster did make an incorrect statement about the process of saponification. The poster's exact words is the phrase in italics and my reply is the regular text immediately below the italicized statement.
The poster is not correct about the point at which saponification starts, despite what you seem to think. I gave a full explanation of why this is not correct and I even described an experiment the poster could do for themselves to learn more about this.
You are basically saying I have no responsibility, given my chemistry background, to correct a serious misconception. You have got to be kidding.
Die Fledermaus
New Member
Since you claim to know so much... why don't you do an extensive tutorial on saponification?
What ARE your credentials?
What IS your chemistry background?
Are you degreed?
I think it would have been wise for you to have reviewed the threads I've started in this forum before you decided to continue this attack.
This is all I am going to say on this matter.
This is all I am going to say on this matter.
It is reasonable to expect anyone making an absolute statement to explain it. I was inviting you to share evidence, and defend the universality of your numerous statements. You clearly knew you would be disagreed with by numerous soapers, so it seemed very reasonable to expect you to have numerous studies and scientific evidence backing up your claims.
I chime in on a lot of things, and the fact that I didn't take time to respond to this thread until after questionable information has been posted doesn't mean I don't care about the OP. Others were posting good solutions and giving correct information, so I didn't feel a need to be redundant.
TBH, posting questionable/bad information, accusing a lot of people of bad motives, and arguing with one of the actual experts on the forum is not a very good start for you here.
My response was because this poster presented their opinion this way:
it is absolutely essential, in my humble opinion, to have both the oils and lye solution at the minimum of approximately 125-130° F. Some members here will disagree with me, that's their prerogative. When cold processing soap low temps, especially below 100°F will cause a "false trace"
In my experience, this is not the case, and I wanted the OP to know that this wasn't necessarily true for everyone. I don't think I was disrespectful in any way.
As to your response to @DeeAnna, she is a highly respected member here who generously shares her knowledge. She has done many, as you put it, extensive tutorials for the benefit of members of this forum. If you care to be bothered to look: Table of contents | Soapy Stuff
And yes, she is degreed.
KimW
Well-Known Member
What a thing to read over morning coffee. Bless your heart, @Nibiru2020. You based your first username on mythology and something that doesn't exist. Now it appears that you have, or perhaps a sympathetic friend has, based a new username on a flying mammal that most people seek to avoid.
@HayBond, I'm so sorry your thread has been hijacked. I do hope you ignore this and will update us on your progress. I'd sincerely like to know how you decided to move forward.
Time for more coffee...and maybe an episode of Friday Night Dinner.
@HayBond, I'm so sorry your thread has been hijacked. I do hope you ignore this and will update us on your progress. I'd sincerely like to know how you decided to move forward.
Time for more coffee...and maybe an episode of Friday Night Dinner.
I could ask you the same? The OP was incorrect in many of her assertions. The only thing that is "absolutely essential" in soap making is that you do NOT pour water into Lye...that's it. Ann Marie is a good source, but she is not the end-all, be-all...the woman uses glass for Gawd's sake and sees nothing wrong it. And it was not a "suggestion", it was an absolute...suggest you reread the post.
Really...name calling??? And yes, when you spell it like that, it's clear what your intent is.
What exactly is your point? Just because you've been doing something for 20 years doesn't mean that you are doing it right or that you actually know more than someone else that hasn't.
Uh...the OP said that...first paragraph, line 8. Even a "noobie" like myself knows that saponification doesn't start at trace, that it starts from the very second that fats and lye are mixed. If you have any doubts, make a lye solution with milk. As soon as you add the Sodium Hydroxide to the milk, it IMMEDIATELY starts to convert the milk fats into the salts of fatty acids.
Again with the name calling and insults. What the heck is your problem?
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I am locking this thread as it has become acrimonious in nature.
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