Soap is too drying - up SF or decreasing coconut oil

[math ace]

Hey Soapy Friends!!

Last year, I test fragrances from many fragrance companies. I used the same CP soap recipe for all fragrance test.
This year, I want to refine my soap recipe. The original soap recipe had this profile:

I thought my original recipe was a little drying, so I lowered the cleansing profile by reducing the coconut oil and adding cocoa butter to the recipe. I am running with a 4% SF. The following is the new recipe profile.

The feedback that I am receiving is that the soap is still too drying.

1.) Would raising my SF help make the soap less drying?

2.) Should I raise my SF or lower my coconut oil to make my soap less drying ?

3.) What do you think is a good Cleansing value to aim for?

4.) I tried Sodium gluconate & Soribitol in one batch. The feedback that I received was that the soap had more lather BUT felt really "pure & clean".
I really don't know how to interpret this feedback!

5.) In testing of soaps with cocoa butter or shea butter, the feedback was that the cocoa butter was more drying.

The soaping profile of the soaps with shea butter was as follows:

Thanks for advice for reformulating my soap recipe.

 

[Obsidian]

Lower the coconut until your cleansing number is 11-15.
Anything over 15 dries me up terrible, 11 is my best number for good cleansing and happy skin.

I don't like cocoa butter in anything, no soap, lotion or lip balm. Shea is ok but I use lard for a hard oil. If going animal free, I'll use palm.

 

[math ace]

@ Obsidian,

YES, I need to stay animal free.

Do you find any use for Sweet almond oil or rice bran oil in CP soap? Do you think they bring anything to the table for CP soap?

I feel like I should add something self indulgent to my soaps since I am going to all the trouble of making them. Is this just foolish thinking? Should I just stay with the basics: CO, OO, Palm oil, and Castor oil OR is there a oil / butter that I could add that would actually improve the soap?

 

[Obsidian]

I've never used almond oil and wasn't impressed with rice bran.

I do really like HO sunflower or some avocado. I'm one of those who doesn't see any big difference with luxury oils so I just don't use them. I no longer use OO, instead I use safflower or sunflower. Sunflower seems to produce better lather faster.

I don't use butters either for the same reason, no difference and it just adds cost. Some people do see a difference though, it really depends on your skin and what it likes.

Shea butter can make the lather creamier but too much can reduce lather. I think I was using 10-15% when I was still using it.

 

[Arimara]

For me, rice bran oil is more cost efficient than avocado oil but I like both in soap. I also like cocoa butter in soap and will lean on using more soft oils if I use cocoa butter. As far as coconut oil is concerned. I tend to cap it at 20%. If I use more than one cleansing oil, the combined oils need to meet 20% of my batch. Lastly, that "pure & clean" comment could have meant that that particular soap cleaned the best.

 

[ravenscents]

I've never used almond oil and wasn't impressed with rice bran.

I do really like HO sunflower or some avocado. I'm one of those who doesn't see any big difference with luxury oils so I just don't use them. I no longer use OO, instead I use safflower or sunflower. Sunflower seems to produce better lather faster.

I don't use butters either for the same reason, no difference and it just adds cost. Some people do see a difference though, it really depends on your skin and what it likes.

Shea butter can make the lather creamier but too much can reduce lather. I think I was using 10-15% when I was still using it.

which sunflower oil do you use? off the shelf at the grocery store or ordered from supply company

 

[Obsidian]

which sunflower oil do you use? off the shelf at the grocery store or ordered from supply company

I get mine at trader joes

 

[cmzaha]

In my vegan recipe, I use palm with either HO Sunflower, HO Canola or Avocado in some. I actually really like HO Canola and get a very thick creamy lather. I use 40% palm, 25% liquid oil, 18% CO, PKO or CO/PKO split. This gives a cleansing value of 12% Castor and shea. I find over 45% palm will lead to a hard waxy bar.

Oops, forgot to answer the original post. I would lower the CO and keep the cleansing value no higher than 17% I like 15%
EDTA: I just checked back a couple of my older recipes and my cleansing number is 12% for a 2 yr old Patchouli soap I am using now. It is lovely and lasting forever.

 

[lucycat]

If you have always done a SF of 4% you need to test some small batches with more. I like 6-7% and it will make a difference in the feel of the soap against the skin and in the look of the bar. Less drying, probably. (If I lather 3 times because the bar feels great it may be just as drying). I don't have a problem with a cleansing number of 18 and it may be because I SF at 6%.

I haven't used Soap Calc in a while so I am thinking the blue column is your total recipe. The hardness of 46 made me wonder the % of hard oils. (I am happy with a hardness of 40.) I like a soap where I use 55-60% hard oils but am like cmzaha that you can have too much palm oil in a formulation (or any palmatic fatty acid for that matter).

Rice Bran - I like it but don't always use. The fatty acid profile of RBO has more palmatic than olive oil does. If I decide to use 100g in a recipe I usually reduce my olive by 50 and my palm by 50. I expect soapers who like it best probably have a low palm oil % in their soap.
Sweet almond - I use in some other products and so will use in soap occasionally. I usually can't tell the difference in it and olive in the finished soaps.

I am like you that I want to add some 'extra'. My favorite extra is avocado. However, my customer base think shea and cocoa butter are the luxuries. I rarely use avocado because the cost doesn't justify its appeal to anyone but me. You can make a nice soap with or without 'extras'. I sometimes think their main benefit is label appeal.

One of the problems with testing, is that you have to decide whether the extra oil caused the change or was it that you simply reduced the oil that you took out. So, I will only substitute an 'extra' with an oil with similar properties. So, sub cocoa butter for palm, sweet almond for olive/HO canola. If you substitute cocoa butter for coconut you don't really know whether it is the cocoa butter that made the difference or the fact that you lowered the % cleansing (lauric FA) and increased the % stable lather of palmatic FA. You might have had a similar results in your soap by lowering the coconut and increasing the palm.

 

[cmzaha]

Part of my reason for low superfat, 2% being my preference, is my old plumbing will not accept even 5% superfat. Of course my plumber would like me to use higher.

I simply do not have to make a soap with high CO to produce lather, so my cleansing number can be between 12-17%. The 17% are soap fragrances men usually purchase, who tend to like a bit more cleansing. But even then I vary the cleansing so they have choices.

 

[math ace]

I am like you that I want to add some 'extra'. My favorite extra is avocado. However, my customer base think shea and cocoa butter are the luxuries. I rarely use avocado because the cost doesn't justify its appeal to anyone but me. You can make a nice soap with or without 'extras'. I sometimes think their main benefit is label appeal.

What do you think Avocado oil brings to the soap as opposed to shea butter?

I haven't used Soap Calc in a while so I am thinking the blue column is your total recipe. The hardness of 46 made me wonder the % of hard oils. (I am happy with a hardness of 40.) I like a soap where I use 55-60% hard oils but am like cmzaha that you can have too much palm oil in a formulation (or any palmatic fatty acid for that matter).

Recipe #1 with hardness of 45
Castor oil 5%
Coconut Oil 25%
Palm Oil 25%
Cocoa Butter 10%
Avocado Oil 15%
olive oil 20%

This is the recipe that was has received the most complaints about it being drying.

I actually really like HO Canola and get a very thick creamy lather. I use 40% palm, 25% liquid oil, 18% CO, PKO or CO/PKO split. This gives a cleansing value of 12% Castor and shea. I find over 45% palm will lead to a hard waxy bar.

Cmzaha,
I've never ran my Palm oil that high. The highest I've ever ran my Palm Oil is 32%. I am a little afraid to crank it up that high! Will it make my batter too thick to do pretty soap designs? What temperature do you normally soap at?

 

[atiz]

I usually use lard or tallow (or both), but I was out last time and made a high butter low cleansing soap that turned out to be really nice. Very mild, with still quite good leather.

Sunflower HO 30%, Apricot Kernel Oil 10%, Cocoa Butter 10%, Kokum Butter 10%, Mango Seed Butter 10%, Shea Butter 10%, Coconut Oil 10%, Castor Oil 9.5%, Beeswax 0.5%.

(I was trying to deplete my stash of butters so that's why the so many different kinds. I really don't know it makes a huge difference which butters you use, and I would doubt you need all of them. I was also out of Avocado oil, otherwise would have used that instead of apricot.)

Not sure it's a very cost-effective soap (probably not; I don't sell), but if you have some extra butters lying around, you could experiment, I do find they make a difference.

 

[penelopejane]

Recipe #1 with hardness of 45
Castor oil 5%
Coconut Oil 25%
Palm Oil 25%
Cocoa Butter 10%
Avocado Oil 15%
olive oil 20%

This is the recipe that was has received the most complaints about it being drying.

I find Coconut oil over 10% too drying for my skin. It also dissolves quickly with use.
If it were me I'd take the 15% from the Coconut oil and add to the Olive oil but I love Olive oil. I use a really, really low SF.

I really like avocado oil and shea butter (similar to cocoa butter but that is too expensive here) in soap. In blind testing my test group preferred Almond oil to Avocado oil in the same soap but Avocado oil has better label appeal.

Annoyingly you really won't know what is "best" until you make the soaps and test them after a good cure. Everyone's skin is different.

 

[lucycat]

What do you think Avocado oil brings to the soap as opposed to shea butter?

I don't compare avocado and shea. I think avocado is closer to olive in its fatty acid profile while shea is closer to palm and I would substitute them based on whether I wanted to increase the oleic or the palmatic fatty acids. What both supposedly have are a higher amount of unsaponifiables. I really don't have a good source on the amounts or even if this is just an old wives tale but there are always small amounts in an oil that don't saponify. I was taught they add to the benefits of the soap (no idea if that is true). They can make a difference in the overall evaluation of your soap. I am not a washcloth user and my favorite part of handmade soap is how it feels against the skin. Others may not notice it as much. I love the skin feel of avocado in a soap.

Recipe #1 with hardness of 45
Castor oil 5%
Coconut Oil 25%
Palm Oil 25%
Cocoa Butter 10%
Avocado Oil 15%
olive oil 20%

This is the recipe that was has received the most complaints about it being drying.


I would probably enjoy this soap. My basic recipes probably have similar profiles. I don't have a problem with this amount of coconut but over the years have added palm kernel oil and for the 25% coconut would be using 2/3 coconut and 1/3 palm kernel. I really like palm kernel and it is a bit higher in moisturizing properties but it can be somewhat waxy which I don't like and won't sub it completely for coconut.

Cmzaha,
I've never ran my Palm oil that high. The highest I've ever ran my Palm Oil is 32%. I am a little afraid to crank it up that high! Will it make my batter too thick to do pretty soap designs? What temperature do you normally soap at?
[/QUOTE]

Rather than comparing only the palm I think you should compare the palmatic fatty acid. By using palm and cocoa butter (and avocado has more palmatic than olive) you do have a higher palmatic fatty acid than you realize and closer to the amount that 40% palm has.

 

[cmzaha]

The total Palmitic in my recipe using 40% palm is 23%.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

So I like shea butter at 10%, I like the feel of the soap, it feels creamier to me. It is also cheaper for me than mango or cocoa butter. I also use 5 - 10% sweet almond oil in most of my soaps, though I don't know if it adds anything or not. Currently I have a lot of almond oil that I am storing in the refrigerator and want to use up. I usually use coconut oil at 20 - 25%, but notice some on this forum find that much to be drying. I usually use 5% SF for most of my soaps. So it is definitely worth the time to make small batches with varying amounts of ingredients and SF, to see what you like best.

 

[math ace]

Thanks ladies for all the wonderful information.

I dropped the coconut oil by 5% and boosted the palm oil 5%

I left the SF at 4%.

It's really frustrating knowing that I'm going to have to wait a month before I can test the new recipe to see if this resolves the problem.

Patience is NOT my virtue!

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks ladies for all the wonderful information.

I dropped the coconut oil by 5% and boosted the palm oil 5%

I left the SF at 4%.

It's really frustrating knowing that I'm going to have to wait a month before I can test the new recipe to see if this resolves the problem.

Patience is NOT my virtue!

You are not going to see much difference between 20% and 25% Coconut oil.
Try no coconut oil, 10% coconut oil and 20% coconut oil.
Minimum I go for any oil or butter is 10% except castor which I only use at 5% maximum.