Soap false trace/seize BEFORE adding FO?

[DaniDJordan]

I have a big issue that keeps happening. I'm making a coconut milk soap. I freeze the coconut milk and add the lye, slowly (10min process), in an ice bath. The lye mix doesn't really heat up much more than around 70°F (which is weird to me cause I see soapers note it gets hotter). I melt my oils, first attempt I melted them together and cooled them to about 85°F, second time hotter at around 110°F.

The first time when I added the lye mix (it was half water/lemon juice, hadn't added the milk yet) and stick blended, it seized immediately into thick chunks.

The second time I used all coconut milk, and didn't use a stick blender, but when I added the lye there were little rice sized specs, which I assume was oil. I was afraid to stick blend it cause of the first time. The "rice" wouldn't blend with a spoon and the soap started harding within minutes.

All this happens before adding fragrance.

Questions:
Why is the lye not heating up?
Are my oils too cold?
Why did it seize when I stick blended it?
What can I do to fix this?
Also, I use tumeric which turns it bright red, like hot sauce (2 tsp). Am I using too much?

Recipe 1(first attempt):
Coconut oil 35% 5.6oz
Olive oil 20% 3.2oz
Shea Butter 10% 1.6oz
Safflower oil 15% 2.4oz
Sweet Almond oil 15% 2.4oz
Castor oil 5% .8oz

Water 1.6 oz
Lemon juice 1.5 oz
Coconut milk 3 oz
Lye 2.3 oz

Superfat 5%
Water % of oils 38%
Ess/Frag oils 5% .8oz
16 oz oils
--------
Recipe 2(Second attempt):
Coconut oil 35% 5.6oz
Olive oil 35% 5.6oz
Shea Butter 10% 1.6oz
Safflower oil 15% 2.4oz
Castor oil 5% .8oz

Coconut milk 6.1 oz
Lye 2.3 oz

Superfat 5%
Water % of oils 38%
Ess/Frag oils 5% .8oz
16 oz oils
-------

 

[earlene]

The lye is not heating up because of the combination of the ice bath and frozen CM.

If you want the lye solution to heat up, eliminate one of those components and see what happens. If it still doesn't heat up, eliminate the other and see what happens.

Some freezers freeze better than some others. For example, I only like to eat truly solidly frozen ice cream, so I keep my ice cream in the freezer in my garage because it will freeze my ice cream the way I like it. The freezer in the house freezes ice cubes well enough, but not ice cream to my liking. So maybe your freezer is like the one in my garage and it freezes you CM better than some other folks' freezers do, making it start out much colder than theirs.

It's really not a good idea to add really cold to hot, whether the cold is oils and the hot is lye, or vise versa. You will have better results when both are closer in warmth to each other. So heating the oil more and keeping the lye solution slushy cold is just asking for problems.

Also with that much CO, I am not surprised it is starting to solidify so fast. But I would expect it does heat up once it's in the mold.

Oh, and I just noticed the lemon juice. The lemon will counteract some of your lye and increase your superfat if you don't add extra lye to account for that. Although with only 1.5 ounces of lemon juice it shouldn't be too drastic. Here's a link that might help with decisions about using lemon juice and whether or not to add more lye: https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.html

Also what brand of Coconut Milk are you using? Some have more fat content. Have you checked the fat content? Fats in CM start to react with the lye in solution before it ever comes in contact with the rest of the soaping oils, so that will also alter your estimated SuperFat.

Edit: spelling correction

 

[lsg]

Why are you adding lemon juice to the water? Lemon juice will neutralize some of the lye.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/using-fresh-lemon-or-lime-juice-in-soap.22533/

 

[DeeAnna]

"...The second time I used all coconut milk, and didn't use a stick blender, but when I added the lye there were little rice sized specs..."

That's most likely flecks of soap created when the lye reacts with fat in the coconut milk. It will also happen if you do this with full-fat dairy milk, dairy cream, etc. It's lye doing its normal thing when it sees any kind of fat.

 

[cmzaha]

In your first recipe your Lemon juice is going to raise your superfat to approx 7% plus you added coconut milk which will raise the superfat more. Not know how much fat is in the coconut milk I am not sure how much higher the superfat will be.

You needed to add in 1.3g additional NaOH to compensate for the lemon juice. If my math is off, which is very possible, DeeAnna will correct me. Of course that was not the main question, I just threw it out there. The others answered your OP question

 

[DaniDJordan]

Hey everyone, thanks for your replies. I'm going to discard the first recipe -
@lsg I added lemon juice to be fancy but it's impractical.

@earlene You make a good point about the freezer. Mine freezes things very well, so next time I'll try it without the ice bath. Coconut milk brand is goldestar: 13.5oz can with 13g saturated fat. Not sure if that's high or not. Also, I've read different temperature suggestions for milk/lye, usually under 100°F as to not scorch it. So should I keep the lye mixture around 100°F as well as the oils? I'm afraid of the oils being too cold that low.
@DeeAnna well that's good to know. I started to freak out when I saw it.

If I modified the 2nd recipe, maybe lower the CO amount to 25% and raise the OO amout to 45%? So it won't trace so soon.

Also, should I eliminate superfat since the CM already has it or increase the lye?

 

[DeeAnna]

Also, should I eliminate superfat since the CM already has it or increase the lye?

If you don't know how much fat is in the coconut milk, there's no intelligent answer to that question. I wouldn't just eliminate the superfat nor would I willy-nilly increase the lye.

Figuring out the fat content in the CM is the first step in deciding how to adjust the recipe (or not). Some CM has very little fat and some has a lot -- it depends on the brand. Here's some info to help you out: https://classicbells.com/soap/nutritionLabel.html

Once you know the grams of fat in the CM, you can then include that fat in your recipe (or ignore it if you prefer), choose a superfat you're comfortable using, and proceed with some confidence.

 

[amd]

You could also consider doing the split method for making the soap. Split your liquid amount by two (for example, your recipe #2) and add your lye to 3.05 water, and add 3.05 coconut milk to your oils and then combine your lye solution to your oils/milk solution. No need to freeze the milk at all then.

 

[IrishLass]

Ditto what amd said^^^. That's how I do all my milk soaps- it's so much easier/less fussy for me. The only downside is that there'll be less milk in your soap, but happily there's a workaround for that: just reinforce your milk portion with enough powdered coconut milk that would turn your 3.05 water amount into a glass of regular coconut milk, and you're good to go.


IrishLass

 

[DaniDJordan]

@amd @IrishLass that sounds like a good idea. Deanna above linked a calc for finding out the fat percentage, have either of you ever calculated that? What's your experience?

 

[amd]

I haven't done the calculations for my coconut milk, but I soap at 3% SF so if the coconut milk raises the SF by 2-3% I don't have to worry about it being overfatted.

 

[IrishLass]

I do the same as amd^^^- i.e., instead of calculating the milk fat, I just lower the superfat of my milk soaps to 3%. They all come out great for me.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

Coconut milk can raise the superfat anywhere from 2% to 8% depending on the brand. So if you do a 3% superfat when calculating your recipe, the actual superfat could be 5% to 11% including the fat contribution from the coconut milk. With the lower fat CM, it's probably no big deal, but with the higher fat product, it might be too much of a good thing.

 

[DaniDJordan]

So I tried again. Recalculated all the superfat (thanks for the help and the link! @DeeAnna) and wound up with this:
Coconut oil 25%
Olive oil 40%
Safflower oil 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Castor oil 5%

Water % of oils 35%
Superfat 2%


I'm still having a problem with the tracing quickly. I thought lowering the coconut oil would help but that's not the case. I kept the temps of the lye and oil around 125°F. Starting to trace immediately when I stick blended after adding lye but I just blended the paste and added the rest of the ingredients quickly to loosen it. I did the half and half method with water/milk, leaving more water than milk. The water to lye was 3.4:2.3 so maybe I need more water? Anyway this is what came out (I put tumeric and oats in it)

 

[MKLonestar]

I'm still having a problem with the tracing quickly. I thought lowering the coconut oil would help but that's not the case. I kept the temps of the lye and oil around 125°F. Starting to trace immediately when I stick blended after adding lye but I just blended the paste and added the rest of the ingredients quickly to loosen it

The temperature of both the lye solution and the oils were still too high. Try bring them down to room temperature (around 76-78 degrees) and see if that works better for you. Make the lye/water solution the night before, cover it and put it where kids/pets cannot reach it, and mark it "LYE-DO NOT TOUCH". This way by morning, it will be at the temperature you need to start with and you won't be waiting for it to cool down. Get your oils and CM ready, let cool to within 5-10 degrees of the lye and try again. This should keep it from tracing so quickly. Soaping at higher temps causes the batter to trace faster than you want. Good luck and let us know if this works better for you.

 

[earlene]

Another problem might be how you are stick blending. As a beginner, I used my SB to excess, which not only speeds trace, but also can and does burn out the motors of SBs. Some recipes I use I never SB now, while with some others, I only give a couple of short 2-3 second PULSES with the SB.

So try just doing a short pulse with your SB of only 2-3 seconds, then simply stir for awhile. See how it goes with only short pulses and mostly stirring and you may find it doesn't move as fast.

 

[DaniDJordan]

@earlene the first time I did it the temps of both were 70°F and it did the same- maybe this time it'll trace slower with less CO? And blending wise I can try I again but each time it started to trace immediately the moment I starting blending high or low temp. And question when the lye was cooling down I started to see white flecks, does lye just do that naturally as it cools?

 

[cmzaha]

If these are white flecks floating on top of the lye solution it is soda ash known as sodium carbonate and nothing to worry about. It happens when un-reacted lye meets air and it the same as ash on that can happen when curing soaps. You can strain it out when you pour your lye solution into your batter.

When you did the split method did you add the additional liquid into your oils first? If you added your 50/50 solution it is going to trace the batter quickly. Always add in all your additional liquid into your oils.

Lowering Castor Oil a percentage or two will also help slow down tracing, since Castor Oil is a fast tracer. I use 2% in a few of my soaps, especially if I want to do multiple swirls and find no bubbly difference between 2% and 5%

 

[earlene]

I second what cmzaha says. When I use castor, which I really don't do very often, I use it at no more than 2-3%, so if you are already only doing short 2-3 second pulses with the SB, then the next thing I'd do is reduce the castor. Also I didn't realize you were using masterbatched lye so I guess I overlooked that part. Mixing a high concentration of lye into oils definitely speeds trace, so either add the remaining liquid up front to the oils before adding the lye, or adding it to the lye solution before adding to the oils would be helpful so prevent immediate trace.

Other than that, what kind of Olive Oil are you using? Pomace OO always speeds trace for me, and for many soapers (although there are some who say it does not for them), so when I use Pomace OO, I never use a SB unless I want instant thick trace.

 

[DaniDJordan]

@cmzaha you guessed right; I've been adding in the coconut milk afterwards so I'll try adding it to the oils next time. I was basing off those half and half recipes that tell you to add the CM at trace, but that clearly doesn't work for me lol. And with reducing castor I take it just add the extra to the CO? @earlene I use pure OO