Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
What does sorbitol do in LS? And is it added to the water? How much per pound of oils?
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I'm guessing it would add to lather just like it does in bar soap. Like sugar on steroids, haha. I use it in bar soap at 1% of oils and am hoping cmzaha can give some suggested amounts.
Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
Try 50/50 Lard & PKO (Flakes). It's a family & friends favorite. I call it "HOG WASH HAIR & BODY SHAMPOO".
ETA: That makes an opaque LS.
If you want impressive lather plus clarity, try 65% coconut, 15% castor, 10% rosin aka the "3 Top Guns of Lather in LS".
CASTOR: You can use a higher % in LS than you would in hard bars.
ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any resulting glycerin. It
gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather and also acts as a
detergent and preservative. To calculate - Rosin has the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact dermatitis in sensitive
individuals).
To use: Rosin has a high melting point. I melt it together with coconut oil ahead of time and pour into individual 2 oz. round cavities. Put in freezer for an hour. Pop out and drop the pucks in a ZipLoc. Store in the freezer until needed.
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Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
What’s the difference between PKO flakes and the PKO oil?Try 50/50 Lard & PKO (Flakes). It's a family & friends favorite. I call it "HOG WASH HAIR & BODY SHAMPOO".
ETA: That makes an opaque LS.
If you want impressive lather plus clarity, try 65% coconut, 15% castor, 10% rosin aka the "3 Top Guns of Lather in LS".
CASTOR: You can use a higher % in LS than you would in hard bars.
ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any resulting glycerin. It
gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather and also acts as a
detergent and preservative. To calculate - Rosin has the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact dermatitis in sensitive
individuals).
To use: Rosin has a high melting point. I melt it together with coconut oil ahead of time and pour into individual 2 oz. round cavities. Put in freezer for an hour. Pop out and drop the pucks in a ZipLoc. Store in the freezer until needed.
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
The flakes are hydrogenated (oleic acid converted to stearic acid), hence it is harder and higher-melting than the “oil” (that is as “oily” as coconut oil is – those who come up with the name coconut oil/palm kernel oil, obviously lived in the tropics).
Little difference form the “bubbly” properties.
ETA: It does make a difference for storage/dosage/weighing (advantage for flakes over lumpy grease), and in confectionery. But SAP is identical. Choose whatever is easier accessible to you.
Little difference form the “bubbly” properties.
ETA: It does make a difference for storage/dosage/weighing (advantage for flakes over lumpy grease), and in confectionery. But SAP is identical. Choose whatever is easier accessible to you.
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Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
Sounds like PKO flakes would go into a whipped or cream soap as I can imagine a portion of flaked PKO would form at the bottom or top of otherwise clear LS. Or am I way off the road here?
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
The flakes will melt up fully, and once liquid you won't see a difference to any other lauric oil. Doubly so after saponification.
To be honest, I have never worked with hydrogenated PKO flakes. It might or might not happen that at very high concentrations (>30ish % after dilution) some potassium stearate might precipitate/opacify the LS – but that'll clear up with dilution. At any reasonable usage rate, PKO flakes should give crystal clear, entirely transparent and near colourless LS.
To be honest, I have never worked with hydrogenated PKO flakes. It might or might not happen that at very high concentrations (>30ish % after dilution) some potassium stearate might precipitate/opacify the LS – but that'll clear up with dilution. At any reasonable usage rate, PKO flakes should give crystal clear, entirely transparent and near colourless LS.
Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
So cool. Thank you for the explanation. What a badass hobby!
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
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Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
So, what’s the max amount for flakes? 30%? Is it used in conjunction with the PKO normal oil?In addition to what @ResolvableOwl said, the flakes are a lot easier to work with.
example: 30% coconut, 20% PKO flake, 20% castor, 20% sunflower and 10% PKO oil? Or something else?
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
IMHO, it makes no sense to blend lauric oils. Like saying “Not more than 20% CO” but then having 20% CO + 20% PKO is close to self-deception.
It's not specifically the coconut that's drying/stripping, but (essentially) the lauric acid it brings. And all CO, PKO (unaltered or flakes), babaçu, murumuru… all are roughly comprised half of lauric acid. If your skin dislikes high-lauric soaps, you have to limit the sum of these oils, not each individually.
30% is a reasonable usage rate if and only if the remaining 70% are non-lauric oils (like sunflower, castor, olive, canola, etc.). Then you have all options to make your life as easy or as difficult as you want, by subdividing these 30% into PKO flakes alone, or PKO flakes + soft PKO + coconut, or murumuru + tucumã kernel oil, or whatever.
It's not specifically the coconut that's drying/stripping, but (essentially) the lauric acid it brings. And all CO, PKO (unaltered or flakes), babaçu, murumuru… all are roughly comprised half of lauric acid. If your skin dislikes high-lauric soaps, you have to limit the sum of these oils, not each individually.
30% is a reasonable usage rate if and only if the remaining 70% are non-lauric oils (like sunflower, castor, olive, canola, etc.). Then you have all options to make your life as easy or as difficult as you want, by subdividing these 30% into PKO flakes alone, or PKO flakes + soft PKO + coconut, or murumuru + tucumã kernel oil, or whatever.
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
It's a sub for Coconut Oil. They are in the same category for hardness & lather.
No. But some of us old timers might use PKO and Coconut together.
Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
Wow! Thank you @Zany_in_CO imma order some flakes and see where this leads me.
I actually use powdered sorbitol bc it is cheaper and easier to store than a liquid in a bottle. Here is the one I recently purchased from Amazon. It does make for fantastic lather in bars, and now I'm going to research using it in LS, too.
You are smart to order the PKO flakes. The solid is cheaper, but it's like chipping at rocks to get it out of the container. I may or may not have said a bad word or three as I fussed with it.
Sorry, I haven't heard of it. Good question for the scientific ones.
Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
What were the bad words used? Did they work? I think I read 5% sorbitol somewhere but need to try snd find that article again then put it in here.
Justcallmewillie
Well-Known Member
Malt extract agar is a used to cultivate yeasts & molds in a petrie dish in laboratory environments. Perhaps the malt extract would work, but why the agar-agar that is used to make the agar, the gelatinous substrate? Do you have a bunch of it on hand? Maltose is a disaccharide, as is sucrose (table sugar) and both break down to glucose, so I would expect the effect in soap would be much the same from maltose as from table sugar.
Sorbitol, a sugar alcohol, is said to produce a even more lather, and some soapers prefer using sorbitol over table sugar, and need less of it to produce good results.
Therefore, I do not believe it (MEA) would work the same as sorbitol. And I'm not sure it would be wise to introduce something meant to foster the growth of yeasts, molds & fungi into soap.
