Sketchy Farmers Market?

[Hazel]

Again, I disagree with you. I don't believe comparing handling lye bases in a laboratory as comparable to using lye in your home. I'd be a lot more concerned about handling a lye base in a lab. However, my lab experience is from many years ago so perhaps alkali bases aren't as concentrated. Then again, perhaps the instructor was just trying to scare us so we wouldn't do something stupid with them. I was nervous about using lye when I first starting soapmaking, too. But it's not the bugbear I had read about; although it should be treated with caution.

However, I realize I have a different perspective of soapmaking from you. I've talked about the chemistry vs art in the past and I don't feel like writing it all out again. Suffice to say, I'll always view soapmaking as an art form and as a creative outlet for me; not as a chemistry experiment.

 

[CanaDawn]

I don't understand that comment...."base" just means "alkali", and all can be diluted or used concentrated. That would be no different to when you were using bases in lab.

Lye is a base. That's just a fact.

You're apparently talking lab experience as a student, so we definitely have a different perspective there. I don't know why you think pure NaOH would be different in a lab, and MORE dangerous there than the pure NaOH we use to soap. It's the same stuff. Lye is lye. If you have handled it, or other bases, safely in a lab, you can definitely do so in your home. The skills are transferable <- that's my point.

It's impossible to deny that soap-making requires chemistry to work at all, but that will never preclude using that chemical reaction artistically. I don't see why you are disagreeing so strongly, or making it sound like I deny that soap-making includes artistic skills, because I don't. It just isn't realistic to say that someone who has extensive lab experience would suddenly be a complete greenhorn at handling the same chemical in a different location.

ANYhow...before I get accused of causing thread drift, the topic of this thread is Farmer's Markets and selling soap there, so I am going to back away from this strange side trip.

 

[girlishcharm2004]

I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)

 

[Corinne]

Blah, I tried to leave in peace, but forgot to turn off my e-mail notifications. I will try to answer some trying questions briefly, simply because you all seem to feel that I am going to tarnish your reputations as soap makers with my horrible inexperience.

1) Sometimes things I say can be interpreted a different way than what I meant initially. Please keep that in mind when I say that I was "afraid" to use lye until recently, because I am a Type A personality and very cautious. I was "afraid" in the sense that I wanted to make sure I had EVERYTHING about soap basics down to a t, before going out and letting other people try my soap. I didn't want ultra high pH levels causing chemical burns at my hand.

2) I don't use colors. I only use essential oils. And I have used them in many other handmade products and M&P bases before. So in regards to fading and morphing... I don't know and honestly I actually don't really care. My intention is to have products for people with sensitive skin like myself, and I plan to change and adapt my products as I get feedback from friends (because the majority of people I plan to sell to are friends right now, which is why I'm picking a local market that I will invite them to come to rather than shipping to all of the friends who are interested). I'm not going to charge through the nose for my soap because I want people to expect a product that is a work in progress, but unfortunately I'm not blessed with unlimited funds and so I can't give out any MORE samples currently. And the DOS are yet to be seen... I have kept samples from all of my batches to track their progress.

3. Let me make this clear, since I haven't already, apparently: my business has been in the works for months. I did not build it in three weeks. I am cautious and do not spill my guts to the public before I have things licensed and copyrighted, and since my FBN had not been through the 4-week cycle at the time, I thought it best to NOT mention my name choice on a forum where other people might see the opportunity to snatch the name that took me months to decide on... I had my sellers permit long before that and made the necessary changes once my FBN was set. I think I asked something about a sellers permit because I had one but wasn't sure if there was something more needes to sell soap aside from a local business license if you only sell at craft fairs etc... Anyway, forgive me if I wasn't completely transparent on this matter.

4. For the bazillionth time I do not plan to sell much soap. I will only sell what I know is SAFE, has had AT LEAST 1 month cure time, and has been tested on myseld in the first place. But secondly, I will be selling lip balms, salves, creams, solid lotions, etc. that I have been making for months! So please stop treating me as if I am incapable of making anything BUT soap, and that I will be tainting the names of soapmakers everywhere by choosing to start up a business to sell my OTHER handcrafted items. I don't know what else any of you sell, but I am sure that a lot of you sell things other than soap, right? Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Please don't take this as a mean or targeted response. I'm trying to cover a lot of questions and concerns in a single post while in the process of batching up some solid lotions for the market.

I did come on this forum as a "newbie soaper" because I didn't want to come off as a know-it-all after only learning how to soap from various books, websites, etc. and using lye calculators to check amd double check everything. As I said I'm Type A and I often spend months researching things inside and out before I "take the plunge". So when I finally decided to, I thought it would be a good idea to check with others who had more experience to see if I was doing everything correctly, and to confirm or deny what I had read online (because you can't always trust the web, knock on wood).

By the way, I would like to just end this with saying that I have known some soapers who I've seen at various markets for years, and I have bought their soaps and been severely disappointed. This is because they are not like many of the people on this forum. They do not seek advice, they do not take advice, and they remain stagnant in their methods and ingredients. The LAST thing I want to to is become like them, and so I have chosen to humbly seek advice on these forums, which has been a great help to me in confirming many things and correcting others. I had hoped that asking questions would continue to reap benefits for me as I continue on this journey, but instead I have been met with a lot of adversity and simple weight which has unfortunately eaten up much of my time over the past few days...

So, as I said before, thank you for the advice and help. I'll leave this thread and all of my posts up for the benefit (and hopefully not to the detriment) of anyone else who is interested.

 

[CanaDawn]

I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)

The reasons have been laid out over and over and over, and for the most part, have merit.

 

[Corinne]

On a slightly different note, it would seem that some of my more positive posts on other threads are mysteriously "vanishing" without a trace... Since I see no issues with that happening to other posters, I will take that as a notice of my presence on these forums being unwelcome.

If I have caused any turmoil over the past few weeks I apologize; I had no idea a few simple questions would cause so many problems. I suppose that since my posts are mysteriously being deleted, I will probably only be remembered in a negative light based on this thread.

Again, thank you for all of the help and advice. It has been greatly appreciated. If I could do this all over again, I would probably not even mention my entrepreneurial intentions.

Blessings to you all in both your soapmaking and your daily lives!

EDIT: I would just like to add that I NEVER mentioned that I would be selling soap in my first post... soap was always just an added bonus in my mind as I start up this business of natural skin care, and since this forum section is about business and craft fairs in "general", I didn't realize that I needed to specify that it was my intention to sell OTHER products at the market, and sell my recently made soaps to FRIENDS there as an easier method of distribution to friends who are interested in giving my cured ones a shot... I just felt slightly offended and attacked when some people assumed that all I intend to sell is second-rate soap, and that because I am new to CP soaping, that must mean I am also new to lip balm, salves, lotions, balms, and anything else I choose to sell at the market. I hope that none of you meant any offense, but I couldn't help feel offended when so many people went off topic to discuss my inexperience on this thread and other related threads.

 

[Shalisk]

I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)

Because it effects how they see OTHER soapers soaps that DO have years of experiance and knows what happens to their soap.

Thats why get get offended/annoyed.

"I spent X dollars I gotta recoup it some how!"
"I had these four people tell me my soap is awsome..." etc etc
"You" in the following represents "Suzy Soaper" (Anyone. Not anyone in particular)


Well lets put it into perspective, if you spent 500 dollars, on your buisness venture that MUST include the insurance and such that you have to have, so ....really you havent spent that much.

Lets adress the things that 'you' have in your favor, and counterpoint them.

"I have had family and friends tell you how great it is!"

Well thats nice. But I dont know many friends or family that would say "holy crap this stuff sucked." if it smells nice and they didnt die, they wont wanna hurt your feelings.

"I spent X dollars and I gotta make it back somehow..."

Perhaps you are not familiar with a hobby. It generally is a money sink done out of love.

Also there are others that spent FAR MORE and spent more time and they are not selling yet. The diffrence is many. Some do it for fun or love, others want to make a profit but know it takes TIME. I am currently at 987.23 in WSP alone. I have 2 stores asking me to sell things there, but the fact is: my soap is not ready. Its not tested long enough. I cant be SURE my product wont ruin people on handmade soaps. Maybe in a few months. but not right now.

"College dont pay for itself."

College takes 4 years to 'master' and putyour skills on the market (IE: Time.)

"Who cares if I do it and my soap sucks, it does not hurt YOU."

Yes it does, lets say you botch a batch and someone gets burned on it (extream case but run with me) They will never buy another handmade soap. I wouldent blame them. That means they wont buy your crappy soap or the good soap someone who put the time in, made. It hurts everyone.

"Why do you care so much about what I do? Get a life."

I care because someday I wish to sell mine and people giving it a bad name is no good.


There are more common statements but you get the point here. Don't be a suzy soaper. Suck it up and take your time. 500 bucks aint all that much for a hobby anyway. Look into RC racing sometime ^.^ (My old hobby)


Hope this helps.

 

[Shalisk]

*Disclaimer:

The thoughs and views expressed here are my own and in no way affiliated with anyone else. They are not ment to be offensive, just my unbiased, unfiltered opinion.

1) Sometimes things I say can be interpreted a different way than what I meant initially. Please keep that in mind when I say that I was "afraid" to use lye until recently, because I am a Type A personality and very cautious. I was "afraid" in the sense that I wanted to make sure I had EVERYTHING about soap basics down to a t, before going out and letting other people try my soap. I didn't want ultra high pH levels causing chemical burns at my hand.

<and a whole lot of words, numbers and psudo-self-humble-boasting mixxed with other things>

1) But you don't have it down to a T, you are asking about basic stuff still. 2) "I don't know, and I dont care." This is why people think you should not sell your soaps
3) You had all this planned but are still asking basic questions and such? Amazing, I dont plan what I want for breakfast.
4) Bazillion is a fictious number. Much like many of the things you seem to have said. I am not trying to stir the pot but what you have said has changed repeatedly, and altered from how it was posted time and time again. It makes me wonder how much of what you say really is true, and thus makes me doubt anything you say. This is a community where trust is important. I make mistakes, I get corrected, those corrections help me from hurting myself or others. If your not being honest then you wont get good feedback and it screws up a lot of things, including soapers that find your posts later to get GOOD information.

4.5) "I came to this as a newbie soaper because I didnt wanna come off as a know it all" so what you are saying is you asked noob questions that were found with a simple search (google or otherwise) so that you could build up a fake reputation as a noob, waste peoples time ansering things you already knew? That....is kinda uncool in my book. And that is unfortunate because some of us want to learn from experianced people. Experianced people do not like having time wasted. I feel sad that I wont want to look at any of your posts anymore, because I wont know what is real and what is not....

I hope you got what you wanted from here, because while I know there are many many people that want to help even after deception and outright mean things, there are those who will not, and keep those things to themself.

Good luck, you will need it.

PS: I see all 57 of your 57 posts no one is deleting anything.

 

[Corinne]

Oh. My. Gosh.

For the umpteenth time, please stop attacking me for starting up a business to sell things that are NOT SOAP.

Because you may SAY that you are not attacking me (nicely put, "Suzy Soaper") but when it is BLATANTLY obvious that you ARE, just cut the crap.

I AM NOT SELLING SOAP TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. PLEASE STOP NEEDLESSLY ATTACKING ME FOR THAT.

Lastly, I corrected myself already in saying that sometimes I say things that don't come across how I intended them to. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, read the rest of my posts (as in I am working 34 hrs/week to pay for college--and since all my money is going into that, I decided I need to start selling my products if I want to keep making them so they are hopefully not a money pit for ETERNITY--I DO know it will probably take me 2+ years, I wouldn't have spent 9 months on this already if I wasn't determined!). And PLEASE stop making assumptions by lumping me together with "every other newbie" in existence!

I am not one to make personal attacks, and I do not appreciate it when people attack me on NO grounds and act like it is acceptable because they are "right".

Any form of animosity, no matter how well intended, is unnacceptable in my books.

 

[Shalisk]

I was awnsering Girlishcharms question. Having seen the same question awnsered many times in other threads, I felt content to post the response in a way using examples (Somthing I had not seen in many other posts) I am sorry that you took it personally.

The internet is a rough place when it comes to text and its easy to think somthing is an attack when it isnt, I do this frequently myself. Please, take a breath, none of it was directed at you personally. I am a no BS kinda fellah that if I was going to call you out, I would do so blatantly.
I am gunna back out of this thread now because I don't need the mods on me for a fight.
Take care.

 

[Corinne]

I don't know why it is that no matter how much I explain myself, someone on this forum has SOMETHING to say to attack what I've said in one way or another, but if you were attempting to weed me out, congratulations.

I can't continue to put up with the constant backhanded comments from a few choice members over the past few days. I used to work retail and I have to say that I have had very bad customer experiences, but not many people were aggressive to the point that I have seen on this forum and especially in the last few posts.

Someone mentioned other forums being worse than this and I'd have to say it all depends on whose side you're on in this case. To me, crafting is a personal joy and passion, and it seems that some people here appreciate that until business comes into play.

I'm sorry that I ever opened myself up and trusted this community enough to ask sincere questions.

I won't make that mistake twice.

I WILL be selling my balms and lotions at the farmers market, and I will not allow what has been said here to strip me of my drive to start my own business and build it with my own two hands. My whole family is against me and my own father won't help me with paperwork or legal things even though he ran a successful business for years. I chose to seek advice here because I thought it was a community of people who I could respect and trust in working my way through the details.

I began this journey alone and I guess I'll continue it alone for now.

For the final time, thank you all for your help thus far, and blessings on you despite the bitter taste I have right now.

 

[Jaccart789]

Corinne...

I know it seems that they are attacking you, but I don't think they are. I think they are trying to prevent you from making a mistake. It is harsh reality and I hope for your sake that you succeed. Don't take it personally and don't leave the forums as all these veteran soapers are such assets, and always so helpful. I understand your eagerness and your dream, so you are going to do what you feel necessary. This forum is a wealth of knowledge and since you are still new to the craft it will only make you a better soaper. Just agree to disagree and carry on.

 

[Relle]

On a slightly different note, it would seem that some of my more positive posts on other threads are mysteriously "vanishing" without a trace... Since I see no issues with that happening to other posters, I will take that as a notice of my presence on these forums being unwelcome.
QUOTE]

Corinne, your posts are not mysteriously vanishing without a trace. This forum is heavily moderated and it will be continued to do so with or without you - ALL members, NOT just you, are moderated. If something needs correcting, deleting, moved or changed, it is done. It does happen to other posters, it is just not brought to everyone's attention, other than in the Mods forum, if you can keep track of all the other members posts - good luck, because I can't.

Here is why they were deleted-

Corinne you had 2 posts deleted by Mods, one in General Chat because of a Rule Violation -

10 - "I'm leaving" posts are not allowed. Should you wish to leave the forum simply go. Go now. Leave already... just leave and don't look back.

and another because you gave advice to another member that was totally wrong. There is no need to reply to this, these are the facts.

 

[Corinne]

I digress... I had thought that there was some kind of rule against disrespect or criticism of other users, and felt that I should be protected under it.

I apologize for taking offense at what I felt were personal blows ("inexperienced", "irresponsible", and a few things I will not mention) on this and other threads.

I do not wish to continue arguing for my own character when it is obvious that the general perception of me is not very good, and my explanations are of no benefit to anyone.

Thank you.

 

[CanaDawn]

Sigh....so....about FARMER'S MARKETS.......are there similar associations in the US that define what makes a market specifically a Farmer's Market? Here there is sort of a governing body that umbrellas over the individual markets and sets some guidelines and standards, and offers the vendors insurance and permitting.

 

[Corinne]

The local farmers market that I plan on attending (where I will NOT be selling soap...) does have blanket insurance, and I know that the group which oversees it also oversees other semi-local markets and regulates them. I'm not sure if that is the same thing though, because it would seem that other out-of-area markets regulate under different rules etc... cmzaha might have more information on SoCal market regulations since she has a lot of experience with them.

 

[PinkCupcake]

Just my opinion--I haven't seen anything here I would consider an attack. I see people telling difficult and unpleasant truths to someone who doesn't want to hear them.

 

[Hazel]

PinkCupcake - Good point. No one wants to hear it. I know because I don't like to hear it , either. I've got a friend who can cut through applesauce so she's not always a fun person to be around. But it's good to have one person who will say what I need to hear; as opposed to what I want to hear.

To start with – another apology to funastrum. I really am sorry to have disrupted your thread.

@ Shalisk – Well said! Don’t worry. I see it as expressing your opinion.

I don't understand that comment...."base" just means "alkali", and all can be diluted or used concentrated. That would be no different to when you were using bases in lab.

Lye is a base. That's just a fact.

You're apparently talking lab experience as a student, so we definitely have a different perspective there. I don't know why you think pure NaOH would be different in a lab, and MORE dangerous there than the pure NaOH we use to soap. It's the same stuff. Lye is lye. If you have handled it, or other bases, safely in a lab, you can definitely do so in your home. The skills are transferable <- that's my point.

Thank you for pointing this out! I appreciate the validation of my feeling that something seemed a little hinky. Yes, my lab experiment was as a student in the distant, murky past and I couldn’t figure out why some comments gave me a sense of unease.

It's impossible to deny that soap-making requires chemistry to work at all, but that will never preclude using that chemical reaction artistically. I don't see why you are disagreeing so strongly, or making it sound like I deny that soap-making includes artistic skills, because I don't. It just isn't realistic to say that someone who has extensive lab experience would suddenly be a complete greenhorn at handling the same chemical in a different location.

ANYhow...before I get accused of causing thread drift, the topic of this thread is Farmer's Markets and selling soap there, so I am going to back away from this strange side trip.

I didn’t deny soapmaking requires chemistry to work. I just wonder how many soapers really think about chemistry when the make a batch. To say I’m disagreeing strongly with you demonstrates you really haven’t gained a sense of who I am just from a few posts. But that’s all right because it doesn’t matter. I can’t believe we’ve actually found something else to agree on about getting off topic. However, I wouldn’t have accused you of it because I’m to blame, too. I enjoyed this debate.

Oh. My. Gosh.

For the umpteenth time, please stop attacking me for starting up a business to sell things that are NOT SOAP.


I AM NOT SELLING SOAP TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. PLEASE STOP NEEDLESSLY ATTACKING ME FOR THAT.


I am not one to make personal attacks, and I do not appreciate it when people attack me on NO grounds and act like it is acceptable because they are "right".

Any form of animosity, no matter how well intended, is unnacceptable in my books.

This isn’t an attack. I just want to mention I saw a post by you where you stated you had made 7-8 batches to sell at a farmer’s market. That’s not the general public?

Also, you’re viewing people expressing concerns and opinions as animosity. It’s not. I’ll say it again. If I wanted to be antagonistic, you would know it and really, really be unhappy with my comments.

Okay, I feel this thread is going south. I’m ready to lock it but I don’t want to be arbitrary since I’m involved in this topic. I’m just going to let it go on. However, if posts get more aggressive, I’m positive another admin will be along to moderate and make a decision.

 

[CanaDawn]

Hazel : I truly appreciate you taking the time to read my reply. I, too, felt something was "hinky". I think I understand now what you are saying a bit better, and what came across as strong disagreement is probably our mutual frustration at trying to "get" where each of us is coming from.

I'm pretty much SURE most people don't think about chemistry when they soap. To be honest, I would say often lab work doesn't consider the specifics of the reactions each time a solution is made, or a common reaction produced. It's all sort of "cookbook", in the mundane aspects. That's not to say the proper cautions aren't taken, though...just that I sure don't think about where all the anions and cations end up when I mix up a buffer.

We have all benefited from DeeAnne's chemistry brilliance, and all admired each other's artistic brilliance, and I prefer a Renaissance-type unity of art and science. I take nothing from either side when I appreciate the value and benefit of each.

I hope this brief struggle to understand each other won't colour future interactions!

(PS...my art medium is cake/fondant )

 

[Corinne]

Hazel, I made 7-8 batches for a friend.... not to sell at a market? I don't understand where all of these rumors about me selling a bunch of soap are coming from...

And I just wanted to add that this was a thread I started, for completely different reasons than the discussion currently taking place. What made me upset is things got WAY off topic and people started trying to give me advice on things I never even asked for advice on...

I DID read ALL of the posts so far, and some very good advice was given (especially toward the beginning) along with some insightful side discussions.

But I didn't ask about any of this. I did not ask about selling my recently made soap--I asked about selling in general at markets, because I'm trying to sell the lip balm that I've been making for the past 9 months. Maybe 9 months isn't long enough for a business venture but I believe that is my choice, and if I AM acting responsibly (as per the advice that has been repeatedly given) then is there a problem?

I felt attacked because people strayed so far off topic seemingly only to discuss how new I am and how I should not be selling week-old soap--which I never even said I was selling in the first place.

I know I am at fault because I realize now that I did not make it 100% clear WHAT I was selling, but I do feel that some effort should have been made on the side of the advice to actually see if the advice given was necessary and relevant...

Maybe this thread will be of help to newbies selling SOAP, but it just doesn't have any relevance to my initial topic, and so I found myself trying to act in defense because I suddenly had a bunch of questions and suggestions (which may have been well-intended) that I was overwhelmed by, and that were of little help or relevance to my questions.