Shower Gell Separated

[Lorna Baer]

I tried making liquid shower gel for the first time. My paste turned out beautifully. How ever when I did the cook I accidentally added the water and cooked the paste till it dissolved then added the alcohol, glycerin and citric acid. I cooked it for about 2 hours and it never thickened. That’s when I realized what I’ve done. The fumes got really strong. The end result is it separated. Amber color on top and golden color on bottom and it doesn’t appear to have any lather. ?
This what I have this morning?

 

[DeeAnna]

Your photo isn't visible -- you need to attach the image file, not just type the image file name.

I gather you are making a lye-based soap as opposed to a syndet-based cleanser, right? If so, please give the recipe, all ingredients all in weights (don't mix weights and percentages) and your method of making the soap. We can't offer good advice without good information.

I don't see any mention of an ingredient that actually thickens the soap from what you did explain. Glycerin and alcohol are solvents to make transparent soap and Catherine Failor and others use citric acid for neutralizing a lye-heavy soap. But soap gels usually have a thickening agent -- often a salt such as potassium carbonate -- to increase the viscosity and modify texture. But that's just my guess based on the limited info available.

 

[DeeAnna]

Okay, I see the photo now.

The white top layer is excess fat and/or fatty acids that have separated from the soap itself, meaning the clear liquid at the bottom.

The top layer is due to making the soap with more superfat than is practical for liquid soap or due to over neutralizing the soap with the citric acid you used. Or both.

 

[Lorna Baer]

Your photo isn't visible -- you need to attach the image file, not just type the image file name.

I gather you are making a lye-based soap as opposed to a syndet-based cleanser, right? If so, please give the recipe, all ingredients all in weights (don't mix weights and percentages) and your method of making the soap. We can't offer good advice without good information.

I don't see any mention of an ingredient that actually thickens the soap from what you did explain. Glycerin and alcohol are solvents to make transparent soap and Catherine Failor and others use citric acid for neutralizing a lye-heavy soap. But soap gels usually have a thickening agent -- often a salt such as potassium carbonate -- to increase the viscosity and modify texture. But that's just my guess based on the limited info available.

I used 25.6oz water, 7.32oz lye
20oz Olive Oil, 8oz coconut Oil & 4 oz Sweet Almond to make the paste.
Like I said it turned out perfect.
Then I heated and cooked 16oz of paste for 3 hours till it was clear in water test. Boiled 6oz of water and added the paste. When paste was dissolved I then added 1.5oz ethanol, 4oz glycerin and 60ml of citric acid solution of 4tbs citric to 60ml water. I’m thinking this may have been to much now that I’m reviewing my
process. I then cook on low for about 30 minutes then boiled for 30 minutes still nothing so I cooked it for an hour more and nothing. The fumes were really strong?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I've never tried making shower gel but maybe this will help ~

NOTES FROM MY FILES - Catherine Failor:

1-2 Tbls. SOLVENTS - ALCOHOL, GLYCERIN, SUGAR WATER (3:2) to clarify
and boost foam. Add gradually to diluted LS as too much will flatten
lather. Experimentation is key; too little is better than too much. Try a
1:1:1 ratio of all three solvents, or 1:1 of only two, or just try one at a
time. Allow to sit 24 hours before adjusting further.

1-2 Tbls. ALCOHOL not only helps to clear soap that becomes cloudy after
adding FOs, but also adds cleansing, boosts foam, and acts as a
preservative. Ethyl alcohol aka “grain alcohol” aka “Everclear” works best
because it is virtually odorless. 80 proof Vodka contains 40% grain
alcohol, so you may need more (2 Tbls); isopropyl alcohol (70% or 90%)
has a strong odor, use less (1 Tbls).

NOTE: Walgreens sells an Ethyl Rubbing Alcohol (70%) that is comparable to the denatured formulator’s or perfume alcohol recommended for B & B products.

60ml of citric acid solution of 4tbs citric to 60ml water.

60ml = 4 tablespoons. (approx.) PLUS 4 tablespoons citric acid = a 50% solution of citric acid.
When adding citric acid to diluted liquid soap you need a 20% solution, added with a light touch. Too much and you risk the batch separating.

I don't usually add citric acid to my LS but I did so for a wholesale customer who required it for her recipe. For a 145 oz of diluted soap I added: 5 tsp. 20% Citric Acid Solution (0.06%), warmed. (Flaked out; warmed to 140°F; mixed right in, no problem.)

I’m thinking this may have been to much now that I’m reviewing my process

Good thinking. If that is your first LS, it's a lesson well-learned.

HTH

 

[Lorna Baer]

I've never tried making shower gel but maybe this will help ~

NOTES FROM MY FILES - Catherine Failor:

1-2 Tbls. SOLVENTS - ALCOHOL, GLYCERIN, SUGAR WATER (3:2) to clarify
and boost foam. Add gradually to diluted LS as too much will flatten
lather. Experimentation is key; too little is better than too much. Try a
1:1:1 ratio of all three solvents, or 1:1 of only two, or just try one at a
time. Allow to sit 24 hours before adjusting further.

1-2 Tbls. ALCOHOL not only helps to clear soap that becomes cloudy after
adding FOs, but also adds cleansing, boosts foam, and acts as a
preservative. Ethyl alcohol aka “grain alcohol” aka “Everclear” works best
because it is virtually odorless. 80 proof Vodka contains 40% grain
alcohol, so you may need more (2 Tbls); isopropyl alcohol (70% or 90%)
has a strong odor, use less (1 Tbls).

NOTE: Walgreens sells an Ethyl Rubbing Alcohol (70%) that is comparable to the denatured formulator’s or perfume alcohol recommended for B & B products.


60ml = 4 tablespoons. (approx.) PLUS 4 tablespoons citric acid = a 50% solution of citric acid.
When adding citric acid to diluted liquid soap you need a 20% solution, added with a light touch. Too much and you risk the batch separating.

I don't usually add citric acid to my LS but I did so for a wholesale customer who required it for her recipe. For a 145 oz of diluted soap I added: 5 tsp. 20% Citric Acid Solution (0.06%), warmed. (Flaked out; warmed to 140°F; mixed right in, no problem.)


Good thinking. If that is your first LS, it's a lesson well-learned.

HTH

Thank you so much for input. I will be experimenting with this.

 

[DeeAnna]

I used 25.6oz water, 7.32oz lye
20oz Olive Oil, 8oz coconut Oil & 4 oz Sweet Almond to make the paste....
When paste was dissolved I then added... 60ml of citric acid solution of 4tbs citric to 60ml water....

The base recipe -- 7.32oz lye with 20oz Olive Oil, 8oz coconut Oil & 4 oz Sweet Almond -- calculates out at a positive 2% superfat assuming the KOH purity is 90%. Superfat is zero assuming 95% KOH purity.

In a nutshell, you most likely didn't need to add any acid at all.

I'm not quite sure why you needed the solvents either, meaning the glycerin and alcohol. With this particular blend of fats, you could have made the paste and diluted with distilled water and ended up with a nicely clear soap.

The steps of neutralizing a lye-heavy soap and cooking the soap with flammable solvents would only be needed if ultra clear soap is your goal.

If you truly want a "shower gel" consistency for your liquid soap, you'd want to use a salt such as potassium carbonate as a thickener. Or a cellulose based thickener might work too.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Thank you so much for input.

You're welcome.

 

[Lorna Baer]

The base recipe -- 7.32oz lye with 20oz Olive Oil, 8oz coconut Oil & 4 oz Sweet Almond -- calculates out at a positive 2% superfat assuming the KOH purity is 90%. Superfat is zero assuming 95% KOH purity.

In a nutshell, you most likely didn't need to add any acid at all.

I'm not quite sure why you needed the solvents either, meaning the glycerin and alcohol. With this particular blend of fats, you could have made the paste and diluted with distilled water and ended up with a nicely clear soap.

The steps of neutralizing a lye-heavy soap and cooking the soap with flammable solvents would only be needed if ultra clear soap is your goal.

If you truly want a "shower gel" consistency for your liquid soap, you'd want to use a salt such as potassium carbonate as a thickener. Or a cellulose based thickener might work too.

Thank you!

 

[GGMA0317]

I tried making liquid shower gel for the first time. My paste turned out beautifully. How ever when I did the cook I accidentally added the water and cooked the paste till it dissolved then added the alcohol, glycerin and citric acid. I cooked it for about 2 hours and it never thickened. That’s when I realized what I’ve done. The fumes got really strong. The end result is it separated. Amber color on top and golden color on bottom and it doesn’t appear to have any lather. ?
This what I have this morning?
View attachment 73056

If you're trying to make gel, you might want to try borax as opposed to those other things. It should be dissolved and added after the dilution process. 3 oz borax completely dissolved in 6 oz distilled water. I've never made GEL from natural LS using anything else. Can be colored as well.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

If you're trying to make gel, you might want to try borax as opposed to those other things.

I've never tried Borax to thicken LS but here's some info from my files:

MISCELLANEOUS ADDITIVES

SODIUM CARBONATE (20 Mule Team Borax, Calgon Water Softener, Arm &
Hammer Washing Soda) - pH buffer, viscosity modifier, preservative,
emulsifier, foam booster, and stabilizer. One of the best all around
additives for liquid soap. Use rate: Add 1 tsp. PPO each to the lye solution
and to boiling water during the Dilution Phase. Dissolve thoroughly.

CALGON : Like Borax, brand name bath preparations enhance foaming, soften hard water, and trigger gelling in liquid soaps. Calgon is a blend of various sodium salts, mainly sodium carbonate and sodium hexamertaphosphate. Buy the "nonfoaming” bath variety.

 

[GGMA0317]

I've never tried Borax to thicken LS but here's some info from my files:

MISCELLANEOUS ADDITIVES

SODIUM CARBONATE (20 Mule Team Borax, Calgon Water Softener, Arm &
Hammer Washing Soda) - pH buffer, viscosity modifier, preservative,
emulsifier, foam booster, and stabilizer. One of the best all around
additives for liquid soap. Use rate: Add 1 tsp. PPO each to the lye solution
and to boiling water during the Dilution Phase. Dissolve thoroughly.

CALGON : Like Borax, brand name bath preparations enhance foaming, soften hard water, and trigger gelling in liquid soaps. Calgon is a blend of various sodium salts, mainly sodium carbonate and sodium hexamertaphosphate. Buy the "nonfoaming” bath variety.

When I used it, it was specifically for making Gel. I don't use it to thicken LS as there are much better options. The OP said her shower GEL separated so I assumed she was attempting to make a Shower Gel and not plain LS.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree -- the OP was talking about shower GEL, which to my mind has a different texture than simple thickened LS.

A gel is not simply a thick but runny fluid like honey; it's more like the texture of a soft fruit jelly -- it can form and remain in soft mounds.

The OP could get a thicker LS simply by using less water or using a careful amount of salt.

 

[GGMA0317]

I agree -- the OP was talking about shower GEL, which to my mind has a different texture than simple thickened LS.

A gel is not simply a thick but runny fluid like honey; it's more like the texture of a soft fruit jelly -- it can form and remain in soft mounds.

The OP could get a thicker LS simply by using less water or using a careful amount of salt.

Exactly. Both are soap but have different textures.

 

[Lorna Baer]

If you're trying to make gel, you might want to try borax as opposed to those other things. It should be dissolved and added after the dilution process. 3 oz borax completely dissolved in 6 oz distilled water. I've never made GEL from natural LS using anything else. Can be colored as well.

I’d rather not use Borax if I don’t need to. Can Soda Wash be used instead?

 

[GGMA0317]

I’d rather not use Borax if I don’t need to. Can Soda Wash be used instead?

As previously stated, I've never used anything other than borax to make shower gel from LS. I don't know what Soda Wash is, but if you've researched it, you have your answer. So, Can You?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I’d rather not use Borax if I don’t need to. Can Soda Wash be used instead?

Borax and Washing Soda are not the same thing. While both are Sodium Carbonates, Washing Soda is caustic on the skin, in my experience. Not so with Borax. I use Borax as a water softener for laundry. On the other hand, A&H Washing Soda is great for cleaning up waxy ingredients. For example, lip balm.
1 tablespoon WS dissolved in 16 oz. boiling water. Soak utensils for 5 minutes. Wax rises to the surface where you can then skim it off and reuse the solution again.

Is Borax Safe?
https://moralfibres.co.uk/is-borax-safe/

What is Borax Substitute? The chemical name of Borax Substitute is Sodium sesquicarbonate. This is a mixed crystal of Sodium Carbonate (also known as washing soda or soda crystals) and Sodium Bicarbonate (also known as baking soda or bicarbonate of soda).