Shaving Cream Soap Recipe - What do you think?

[doriettefarm]

Mish - I'm glad the guys didn't chase you away with their intense feelings about shaving soap! I agree that songwind's thread is well worth the time to read all 50+ pages. I attempted my first shaving croap over the weekend and the info in that thread was really helpful.

I ended up using 70% KOH/30% NaOH because I wanted a semi-solid bar that could be sliced into pucks. Stearic Acid @ 50%, Tallow @ 35% and Coconut Oil @ 15% . . . also added glycerin at 15% of oil weight after the cook plus avocado oil to superfat. EOs were added after the mixture cooled a bit then I rolled into logs using parchment paper.

For my next batch, I would like to lower the percentage of stearic but don't want to negatively impact the lather. I would also like to replace the coconut with babassu since the fatty acid profile is pretty similar. I know swapping babassu for coconut isn't cost effective but these will be luxury shave bars mainly for me and the hubs. Also thinking about swapping my superfat from avocado oil to shea butter since I'm seeing shea in so many other shave soaps it must be a good thing.

 

[IrishLass]

I did see that in my original search (before I posted my question) I noticed the % Coconut oil used, is the Saponification Value of Coconut Oil different when using KOH and NAOH together? I mean how is it not too over drying?

I guess this is what you guys mean when you say that I am coming at this like a "soap" and not a shaving soap?

Mish- having made 100% coconut soap with only KOH, I can tell you from personal experience that it is still just as drying as when it is made with only NaOh.

Also, although many shavers love Songwind's facsimile of the famous Martin de Candre shave soap with the high CO, it's not everyone's cup of tea (or rather mug of shave-soap ;-) ). I've read posts where a handful found it to be too drying, and therefore have tweaked it to better suit their particular skin-type. And if I remember rightly, even Songwind himself tweaked it later on in his thread (to be less drying for him). I'm not saying the original is a bad recipe, but just that you should keep in mind that it's not necessarily for everyone 'as-is'.

In regards to "coming at it like a shaving soap instead of soap", I know only too well what is meant by this as many of the self-described "crazy, troublemaking wet-shaving dudes" here have helped me understand shaving soap in greater detail over the recent summer. (I say that with love, dudes)

Back in the day, I used to think of shaving soap as just a regular bar of soap with clay in it for slip, but it's so much more than that. If you read through the excellent KOH/NaOH thread in the link that Boyago gave you in his post, you'll get to see some of my 'schooling' and 'aha!' moments of discovery. It's a wonderful educational thread on shave soap that I think everyone who wants to understand shave soap better would greatly benefit from reading through.


IrishLass

 

[Mish]

Mish - I'm glad the guys didn't chase you away with their intense feelings about shaving soap! I agree that songwind's thread is well worth the time to read all 50+ pages. I attempted my first shaving croap over the weekend and the info in that thread was really helpful.

I ended up using 70% KOH/30% NaOH because I wanted a semi-solid bar that could be sliced into pucks. Stearic Acid @ 50%, Tallow @ 35% and Coconut Oil @ 15% . . . also added glycerin at 15% of oil weight after the cook plus avocado oil to superfat. EOs were added after the mixture cooled a bit then I rolled into logs using parchment paper.

For my next batch, I would like to lower the percentage of stearic but don't want to negatively impact the lather. I would also like to replace the coconut with babassu since the fatty acid profile is pretty similar. I know swapping babassu for coconut isn't cost effective but these will be luxury shave bars mainly for me and the hubs. Also thinking about swapping my superfat from avocado oil to shea butter since I'm seeing shea in so many other shave soaps it must be a good thing.

Doriettefarm, Thank you for sharing your experience and numbers with me.

What soap calculator do you use?

I am on another tab now reading through Songwind's thread I probably should have read all those pages before playing with more numbers and posting another recipe on this thread here. I should possibly expect to get lashings for that I suppose.:think:

I'd be curious to find out how your experiment turns out! Will you post the results on Songwind's thread?

I'm going to finish reading through the thread on the other tab here, take some notes and hit the crock pot this weekend. :grin:

Love,
Mish

 

[doriettefarm]

I use Soapcalc for my regular bar soaps http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp
but I prefer Summer Bee Meadow http://www.summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps for liquid or cream soap.

 

[Mish]

IrishLass, I'm going to check that thread out too for sure. <3

 

[Lindy]

Mish if you are wanting to make a CREAM SHAVING SOAP then it is a different beast than what is in Songwind's recipe. You are on the right track. Take a look at this thread to learn how to make cream soap. You do use both KOH & NAOH but in different proportions that are being suggested.

It is made using hot process and you add your first batch of stearic acid and glycerin to the oils to melt at the same time as your other oils. Then after the cook you are going to melt more stearic down in glycerin to create what is called a supercream which makes your lather even denser. My shaving soap recipe is not the one I posted; that recipe is a teaching recipe only to learn how to make cream soap. The recipe for my shave soap is top secret, undercover, have to kill you if I tell you sort of thing.

 

[LBussy]

Mish I completely understand "chasing the numbers" as an intellectual pursuit. A soap as you posted the second time in theory should produce something close to that which I shared. I do the same sort of mental exercises myself wondering "if I can do it." What I mean by "the numbers lie" is that even if you get exactly the same numbers I got using unicorn tears and pixie gas, you may not get the same soap. This is why I (a lot of us) often suggest to make the simple soap suggested, THEN you will have a comparison which you will have in common with us and we can realistically help you modify it.

CO-dominant recipes do create a soap that I'm not overly fond of, at least the representation of the SA/CO only soap we share. It is a GREAT soap, and 10 years ago would rightfully have been "the best I ever tried." Now we know even more. It is better than a lot of commercial soaps out there, and better than making a bar soap and adding clay as IrishLass shared may have been someone's practice not too long ago.

On your question of SAP values, the simple answer is yes they are different if you use KOH. SAP is the amount of NaOH required to saponify 1g of a given fat. KOH is different (it deals with molecular weights and the number of each atom present for a given mass of lye.) For each gram of NaOH you would have used, you would multiply it by 1.403 to get the same required amount of KOH - in other words you use almost 1.5 times the amount if you use KOH. Another point here just to make it REALLY confusing: Generally, commercially available NaOH is assumed to be 97% pure. Commercially available KOH is assumed to be 90% pure. Most online calculators I have seen take this into account but if you do it manually you will need to do so yourself.

Finally on the use of KOH only or a mix of NaOH and KOH: I keep hearing people say they want to cut the soap into pucks so they use a mix of both. I personally feel this is unnecessary and compromises the quality of the soap. KOH soaps are more soluble and load easier. Loading easier means a shaver can get a good soap load on the brush and that is the start for a good shave session. A soaper/business owner needs to decide first of all if they NEED to sell pucks, or if selling soap (croap) in a tub is suitable. A guy that's been buying crappy drug store pucks and using it in his old coffee cup for 60 years may not like/desire a tub. I get that. If however your customer is a "contemporary" wet shaver, they are going to understand that they get croap in a tub and will expect it.

Further, I can make my recipe with 100% KOH and it is as hard as any puck I have used. That same process may not be appropriate for everyone but to say you need NaOH to get a puck, or that all KOH soap is soft, is false.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

...............I should possibly expect to get lashings for that I suppose.:think: ................

What I really want for you is lather rather than lashings!

 

[Obsidian]

I made songwinds recipe and liked it quite a lot but found it has waxy feeling and a bit drying. I've since came up with a recipe I like better. It does take a bit longer to whip up a lather but its slick and very stable.

I use all KOH but you could use a bit of NaOH too if you want it harder. Its stays pretty soft, way too soft for a mold unless you cook it to death which I did, I also partialy froze it before cutting. I can handle the pucks but they are soft enough I could squish them into any container I wanted.
Normally I pour it in a large shallow tub with a lid for my own use but I wanted pucks to make storage easier.

Beef tallow (you could use palm instead) 55%
Steric acid 20%
Coconut oil 10%
Castor 10%
shea butter 5% (added after the cook in HP)

 

[Mish]

Mish if you are wanting to make a CREAM SHAVING SOAP then it is a different beast than what is in Songwind's recipe. You are on the right track. Take a look at this thread to learn how to make cream soap. You do use both KOH & NAOH but in different proportions that are being suggested.

It is made using hot process and you add your first batch of stearic acid and glycerin to the oils to melt at the same time as your other oils. Then after the cook you are going to melt more stearic down in glycerin to create what is called a supercream which makes your lather even denser. My shaving soap recipe is not the one I posted; that recipe is a teaching recipe only to learn how to make cream soap. The recipe for my shave soap is top secret, undercover, have to kill you if I tell you sort of thing.

Yes, my goal is a cream shaving soap. Thank you for forum discussion link

I'm going to play with a few different recipes this weekend and update the post with my results and pictures the weekend after.

Can you tag other members on posts on here - like on Facebook? Just curious?

Mish

 

[Mish]

What I really want for you is lather rather than lashings!

Thank you

 

[Lindy]

Mish unfortunately you can't tag people on here.