Shaving Cream Soap Recipe - What do you think?

[Mish]

Hey Guys :wave:

This is my first stab at a creamy shaving soap.
Iv'e formulated a recipe without using tallow - I am trying to stay away from using any animals fats. 8)


So this is what I got:

1.58 oz Aloe Butter
1.90 oz Avocado oil
4.40 oz Cocoa Butter
1.80 oz Mango Butter
2.48 oz Shea butter
1.10 oz Stearic Acid
1.00 oz Vitamin E.

0.79 oz Sodium Hydroxide
1.36 oz Potassium Hydroxide

Water 4.77
Glycerin 0.83

Soap Calculator used:
http://www.saffireblue.ca[/URL]

I find the http://www.summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps to be overwhelming.


Is it okay to add the Stearic Acid and Glycerin in right after the Lye Water or wait? If I don't wait and do it at once how will that affect the overall outcome?

Love,
Mish
:mrgreen:

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Looking at the recipe as a shaving product, I'm not sure it'll be that great. Have you read the Songwind shaving soap thread? There is a lot of information in there about what makes a good shaving soap, what makes a great shaving soap and what makes a soap that you can shave with even though it's far from being good.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with TEG. Check out songwinds thread. It's got a lot of amazing information on how to forumlate an awesome shave soap.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264

 

[Mish]

Hi Guys,

These are the qualities that come up with my recipe.

Range - My numbers
29 – 54 Hardness 57
12 – 22 Cleansing 8
44 – 69 Conditioning 39
14 – 48 Bubbly 8
16 – 48 Creamy 49
41 – 70 Iodine 40
136 – 165 INS 156

It is high in Stearic Acid and Creamy... Could you please tell me why you don't think it would be a good shaving soap? :crazy:

I've only been playing with my numbers for the past year!

 

[LBussy]

Not to be a smart@$$ but ... do you shave your face? It's not the same as shaving any other part of your body. Read the original thread posted, really. For comparison, my soap which popular with those I have shared it, carries the following numbers:

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 78
Cleansing 12 - 22 18
Conditioning 44 - 69 13
Bubbly 14 - 46 18
Creamy 16 - 48 60
Iodine 41 - 70 17
INS 136 - 165 192

Those numbers don't always mean much when it comes to regular soap and almost nothing when it comes to a shaving soap. The fat profile I use:

Stearic 52
Lauric 12
Oleic 12
Palmitic 8
Myristic 6
Linoleic 1

I expect the soap you've listed to lather poorly based on my previous work. Why so complicated? A soap widely considered the best in the shaving world among vegan soaps has only Stearic Acid and Coconut Oil.

You're coming at this like a soap. Come at it like a razor.

 

[LBussy]

Start with:

52% Stearic
48% Coconut Oil
KOH only
+14% Glycerin

... try it (hot process) and then move on from there. This is a popularly used homage to Martin de Candre.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

............It is high in Stearic Acid and Creamy... Could you please tell me why you don't think it would be a good shaving soap? :crazy:

I've only been playing with my numbers for the past year!

I'm with Lee on this one - us shavers tend to stick together but more importantly we know what works and what doesn't.

Creamy, conditioning numbers are numbers for bath soaps, not for shaving soap. The purpose of a shaving soap is VERY different from a normal soap - one of the reasons why it is a cosmetic in the USA and must be treated as such when selling, fyi.

To be blunt, I don't care how long you have been working on this. If you haven't been working on it as a true shaving soap, then it is time wasted.

A shaving soap needs to protect the skin and allow the blade to glide. The lather needs to be dense and long lasting. The lather also needs to hold a lot of water without breaking down. Finally, and it is really a point at the end of the others, it shouldn't dry the skin. I put that last as you can always remoisturise the skin, but if the first points aren't there, you are dealing with blood and burning and pain - personally, I'd prefer a touch of tight skin over blood gushing from wounds.

In all seriousness, have you read any of the shaving threads on the forum while putting this together? Or played with different shaving products and looking at the ingredients?

I make no apologies for my tone here - you put the crazy emoticon in, so therefore you are saying we are wrong, which we really are not.

 

[shunt2011]

I'm thinking you aren't researching in the right places. You really need to read the thread that I linked to. Also, lee is giving you excellent advice as it TEG. Many of us started with the recipe that Lee posted and have since played with and tweaked it to our personal liking.

If you think we are crazy then go ahead and make your recipe and see what happens. Then try the one posted and test them side by side. Don't think there will be any question as to which is best to wet shavers. My husband and many of my male customers are wet shavers and love my shave soap.

 

[cpacamper]

As a wet shaving soap-hacker, I'll add my voice of assent to Lee and TEG when it comes to shaving soap vs bath soap.

As an aside, my recipe has a similar fat profile to Lee's and it works extremely well as shaving soap.

 

[Mish]

I'm with Lee on this one - us shavers tend to stick together but more importantly we know what works and what doesn't.

Creamy, conditioning numbers are numbers for bath soaps, not for shaving soap. The purpose of a shaving soap is VERY different from a normal soap - one of the reasons why it is a cosmetic in the USA and must be treated as such when selling, fyi.

To be blunt, I don't care how long you have been working on this. If you haven't been working on it as a true shaving soap, then it is time wasted.

A shaving soap needs to protect the skin and allow the blade to glide. The lather needs to be dense and long lasting. The lather also needs to hold a lot of water without breaking down. Finally, and it is really a point at the end of the others, it shouldn't dry the skin. I put that last as you can always remoisturise the skin, but if the first points aren't there, you are dealing with blood and burning and pain - personally, I'd prefer a touch of tight skin over blood gushing from wounds.

In all seriousness, have you read any of the shaving threads on the forum while putting this together? Or played with different shaving products and looking at the ingredients?

I make no apologies for my tone here - you put the crazy emoticon in, so therefore you are saying we are wrong, which we really are not.

Whoa... :shock: I'm a little blown away by the tone in these replies. Efficacious Gentleman my crazy eye emoticon was me going crazy with this and nothing more. Maybe I used it wrong because I am not into message board culture much (this is my first and only message board that I've tried to be a part of) but that is how my emoticon was intended. I've been nothing but polite and curious here and I just try to get some feed back from people every once in a while but this place doesn't feel very welcoming and friendly :-(

Not to be a smart@$$ but ... do you shave your face? It's not the same as shaving any other part of your body. Read the original thread posted, really. For comparison, my soap which popular with those I have shared it, carries the following numbers:

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 78
Cleansing 12 - 22 18
Conditioning 44 - 69 13
Bubbly 14 - 46 18
Creamy 16 - 48 60
Iodine 41 - 70 17
INS 136 - 165 192

Those numbers don't always mean much when it comes to regular soap and almost nothing when it comes to a shaving soap. The fat profile I use:

Stearic 52
Lauric 12
Oleic 12
Palmitic 8
Myristic 6
Linoleic 1

I expect the soap you've listed to lather poorly based on my previous work. Why so complicated? A soap widely considered the best in the shaving world among vegan soaps has only Stearic Acid and Coconut Oil.

You're coming at this like a soap. Come at it like a razor.

LBussy, Thank you for sharing your numbers with me, I thought and I've read that you don't want a cleansing number in a shaving soap because it can be drying? I get a lot of conflicting information and that is why it has been frustrating for me (reason for the crazy eyes). Although I have not been coming at shaving soap head on for a year, its been sort of on and off. I finally actually made some instead of just banging my head against a way playing with numbers... I haven' t tried it yet but it will likely not me that great.

I will check out Songwind shaving soap thread as you both suggested and I am throwing the rag in on posting anywhere on this Forum for a while :silent::cry:

 

[Mish]

I am the one going crazy! I never said I think any of you are crazy!

 

[LBussy]

Mish: I think, if we sound frustrated, it's because you were directed to the other thread a couple times. This recipe you posted is sort of the type of thing we're trying to steer people away from.

The numbers ... well, they lie. At least they don't tell the whole truth with a soap being used for shaving. The recipe I posted, along with a 5% superfat (I forgot that part, sorry) sells for about $60 a tub. For those results, for that simplicity, it's the place to start. I think you will find small steps from there are all that's needed. I use Tallow, but if that's not part of your plan maybe shea and/or lanolin (if you are not vegan) in an amount ~ 10% total will give what you want.

I get the desire to be complicated. Resist it for now. Try what we've suggested.

 

[Mish]

LBussy,

This isn't the first time I've posted for options or advice and have been steered to another post that didn't answer my specific questions which is frustrating to me as well.

In regard to the confusion... I can see the assumption in thinking that I was possibly calling you all crazy but I certainly was not.

I am disappointed in the assumption and then the intimidate tone that is taken by moderators, If moderators here treat others this way then that sets a presidence for the overall attitude of this forum.

I don't want to feel like I'm walking on egg shells to make a post or ask for advise... This place is a good resource but I would like to be more active and participate in discussions here but not if I am to be stoned for trying!

Either way thank you for the advice...veiled or otherwise.

Mish

Edited out of sync.

 

[LBussy]

We don't want you going crazy, intimidated, or to leave. We want you to be successful.

To learn, you must first follow.

 

[boyago]

Well that was quick to escalate. Passions run deep on shaving soaps!

I'm not sure how much of the tone you are perceiving was intentional or misinterpreted (though the to be blunt line was pretty brutal). Lbussy and The EG are very well versed in their shaving soaps and I've found following their advice has gotten me much further than I would have thus far. The Songwind thread that was linked earlier was an eye opener for me and here is a sister thread that I also learned allot from http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=NaOH.
I am pretty much a total beginner making actual shaving soaps (and wet shaving) but my take on your recipe is that it looks like you are trying to get up their with your butters to the stearic range that will make a good shave soap. Your at 33% I would try to get that over 40%, Your lacking in mysristic and lauric which I feel is needed to kick up all that stearic into something nice and thick and shave soapy. If you have reasons you can explain but you have a lot of avocado oil and aloe butter that seem weird to me. The Oleic doesn't really do much and I am unfamiliar with aloe butter. A lot of the wet shave guys don't like OO in their shave soaps and I was curios why so I made a batch that was 50 stearic and 25 each of CO and OO. It was bad. I think the oleic was the problem. I was kind of rooting for it too. I thought that slimy feel you get from high OO soaps might come through as more lube but it didn't at all. It looks like allot your ingredients are there for conditioning value? If so I think your may want to nail down a recipe that does all the more mechanical duties a shave soap should do and then maybe get to work on an after-shave lotion for you or your users who need that treatment. Anyway that's my two cents from my the shallow end of the learning curve.
ps definitely read those threads.

Edit: I just noticed this is in the LS forum, are you making a cream soap or the croap style shave soap?

 

[Dorymae]

Mish, understand the guys and their shaving soap....well they can get passionate about it. Please don't be intimidated. I stayed out of this thread because really they are the experts when it comes to shaving soap.

I think they may have come off harshly without meaning to, really if you look at some of their other posts you'll see they aren't bad guys - and frankly their advice is top notch.

If nothing else try the recipe Lbussy gave you. I did and WOW. No kidding it is like night and day to bar soap. When you lather it up, honest it is just like a thick shaving cream you'd get from a can - only better.

So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore the advice because of the tone, I don't think they intended to upset you only to direct you to a better recipe.

As for TEG - he really is a big softy when you get to know him, I think maybe he cut himself shaving before he posted!:wink: Seriously, none of us here are out to run anyone out of the forum or to intimidate a newcomer.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you will take the chance and post again when you wish to.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I am sorry that you feel intimidated. I really do.

But when a thread titled 'my first shaving soap is a success' is hardly ever off of the first couple of pages, plus the later thread in the beginner section which was often on the first page - I can't understand why they weren't part of the research. As a user of a forum, not as a mod, I would think that people would read threads on topics that interest them.

I can accept that you didn't mean your comment to be as insulting as it sounded, but then you blame us for assuming that was your intention. If we were sat talking and you said 'what do you think makes a shaving soap?' And then made a crazy sign, how would that come over?

A little while later, you explain that you didn't look at the thread suggested because YOU assumed that it wouldn't answer your question because other suggested threads didn't. Well, I am sorry, but why can you assume something and I am not allowed to?

As a mod, my duties don't include always making you feel wonderful, especially when advice has been given and then ignored in an insulting manner - regardless of your intention, the post was clearly easy to take as insulting as many people read it as such.

I know that this is your first forum, but you now have a choice. You can get defensive and not post anymore or even leave - I can't stop you. But you'd be doing yourself an injustice. This forum is a gold mine of great soaping information. If everyone who ever had a crossed word with someone else here stopped posting, I think it would be pretty darned quiet! we take these instances, shake virtual hands and get on with soaping.

ETA, even as a Mod, I am not above the law. If the other mods feel that one of us is out of line, we tell them

 

[LBussy]

This isn't the first time I've posted for options or advice and have been steered to another post that didn't answer my specific questions which is frustrating to me as well.

Your specific question was (paraphrased) "what do you think about this recipe?" Well, we don't think a lot of it as a shaving soap. I'm not sure without having to say those exact words we could have been more clear in answering your specific question. What we did do, without tearing apart the recipe, is point out that shaving soaps are different. We shared that the numbers you are chasing are not going to be much help with a shaving soap, and we directed you to a starting point that is much closer to your desired goal.

If I walked up to a group of men in a pool hall and asked them how to make a pool shot - and instead they taught me how to play pool ... well I might be intimidated at first but I would be very happy that they taught me the answer to the question I should have asked. To not get better at pool because one of them made me feel bad would be a loss on my part.

The reason we steered you to another thread is because these questions and those in the first post you started about making shaving soap are not unique (not even unique on this forum). You are going about it the same way many other soapers have, and it's not the right way. If you start with making a shaving soap first and then have questions, well then we'd be in the right area.

Also note in that thread we referenced are tips on small batches so you don't waste too much time or money on materials.

 

[Mish]

...when a thread titled 'my first shaving soap is a success' is hardly ever off of the first couple of pages, plus the later thread in the beginner section which was often on the first page - I can't understand why they weren't part of the research. As a user of a forum, not as a mod, I would think that people would read threads on topics that interest them...

Efficacious Gentleman, I did see that in my original search (before I posted my question) I noticed the % Coconut oil used, is the Saponification Value of Coconut Oil different when using KOH and NAOH together? I mean how is it not too over drying?

Please note I am not doubting any of you, these are just questions because I just want to understand and perhaps I'm making this too complicated but I don't want to just use someone else's recipe - I want to understand, ya know?

I guess this is what you guys mean when you say that I am coming at this like a "soap" and not a shaving soap?

Boyago, Thank you so much for your post! I think you really understand how my mind works, that is exactly what I was trying to do... but clearly not the correct way.

...my take on your recipe is that it looks like you are trying to get up their with your butters to the stearic range that will make a good shave soap. Your at 33% I would try to get that over 40%, Your lacking in mysristic and lauric which I feel is needed to kick up all that stearic into something nice and thick and shave soapy. If you have reasons you can explain but you have a lot of avocado oil and aloe butter that seem weird to me...

LBussy, You also pointed out the Acid's in your post to but at the time I couldn't appreciate it because your first few lines threw me for a loop.

In retrospect of 24 hours I can move past the miscommunication on all parts myself included.

...Those numbers don't always mean much when it comes to regular soap and almost nothing when it comes to a shaving soap. The fat profile I use:

Stearic 52
Lauric 12
Oleic 12
Palmitic 8
Myristic 6
Linoleic 1

You're coming at this like a soap. Come at it like a razor.

Can you guy clear up this Coconut Oil paradox that is happening in my mind right now>> totally not putting a crazy sign here<< teehee ( just poking a little fun to lighten things up ;-) )


PS: I don't even want to tell you guys how long it took to figure out these quotes and to get this post to look half way decent I'm pretty sure I went about the whole thing the long way...(rolling eyes at myself)

With Love,
Mish

 

[Mish]

::runs off all excited with acid numbers in hand:: (probably prematurely)

Ok, don't yell about me but I've come up with another one using the numbers and advise given.

Babassu Oil
Cocoa Butter
Shea Butter
Stearic Acid
Coconut Oil, 92 deg
Lanolin liquid Wax

Bar Quality Range Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 77
Cleansing 12 - 22 19
Conditioning44 - 69 17
Bubbly 14 - 46 19
Creamy 16 - 48 57
Iodine 41 - 70 20
INS 136 - 165 184

Lauric 14
Myristic 6
Palmitic 5
Stearic 52
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 15
Linoleic 2
Linolenic 0

Do I need to cut the Sh*#t with the butters?