Shampoo bars

[Liesel Atwood]

Yes, now I see what you mean about being unable to get the ph low enough, even by adding citric acid etc. I also agree with your POV about not all soaps being the same, or good for all purposes. (I paraphrased your comment.) I need to do more research on syndet bars, because I don't know enough about their ingredients, especially surfactants.
I'm sorry to learn that you've had troubles with your hair because of soap. I can certainly identify with hair troubles....I hope the syndet cleanser has helped. Thanks for your kind replies and answers to my questions. Many thanks to everyone who helped me straighten out the chemistry in my head.

 

[Soapymumma]

There are some great responses here. I’d like to add, I feel a little qualified (previous medical scientist & recent hairdresser) been making shampoo (liquid for 20+ yrs, bars for 6 & soap for 20+ and still feeling a beginner with the latter). However with shampoo, the pH needs to be 4.5-5.5 so shampoo needs to be the same to maintain healthy hair, scalp and sebum. Disrupting this with more acid or alkaline will cause problems for the majority at some time - even allowing an environment for (naked to the eye) mites, fungus and bacteria to live on the scalp causing damage to scalp, hair, hair loss & health. This can take many years or just a few months.

Shampoo has a combination of cleansing, & conditioning agents at the very minimum. Regardless of liquid or bar they need these for balance. This isn’t possible in soap due to high pH.

Some people can use soap and acv rinse but not most. It seems those that can use soap as shampoo are a very small percentage of people (my guess is short hair frequently cut so damage is never noticed or the damage hasn’t caught up yet. It can take some years. Then all of a sudden it’s disastrous.

I see absolutely no way of successfully using soap on hair. Syndet bars are the only way of making a solid shampoo bar. There are great resources out there to get started & create a wonderfully balanced shampoo bar for healthy, hair, scalp and sebum levels.

 

[Dahila]

When you bring soap that low ph it is not soap it will separate the fatty acids, You will end up with soft glob , Syndat bars are ph friendly shampoos, actually you could say it is a shampoo without water added. If you want to learn about it , the best option would be to follow swiftcraftymonkey, Susan has a blog and for as little as one dollar you can learn all about hair, and body care. Now she carries a series about ph friendly products. Highly recommend her. You can find her on fb too. and follow the link to blog. She is much easier for beginners. Making skincare is for advanced diyers

 

[Liesel Atwood]

Thank you, Dahila, for this information. I will look for Susan's blog. Actually, I'm not new to soaping or skin care. It's been about 25 years since I began my soaping journey. I am new to shampoo, though, as well as the world of PH testing. I learned by doing, reading and experimenting. Thank goodness for the soap calculators! I enjoy formulating my own recipes and trying out others recipes. Making shampoo has been fun, even though there are two distinct groups of thought. Thankfully, this group has helped me understand some of the differences between the soap "camp" and syndet "camp". Until a month ago, I didn't need to test for PH. I knew that if i used a soap calculator and followed the recipe precisely, one way or another soap would be the result. It was easy to tell if the soap was "good soap" or lye heavy. Then I saw soapers on youtube, ph testing once or maybe even twice in a soap batch, and i thought I should do that as well. But I've found PH strips to be a bit of a waste! It can be a novel thing, to know approx. what the ph of my soap is, but they don't tell me anything i didn't already know, and that was, safe or not safe. Good soap or Not Good soap. Now my task is to research shampoo bars, and syndet bars, and figure out where I stand. There are many things to consider, and I appreciate all the voices I've heard and the info I've learned here. I am thankful to everyone who has contributed to my shampoo journey!

Hi SoapyMumma!
Thank you for your response to my questions! As with the other lovely ladies who have responded, you are obviously very educated in the soaping arena. I have learned something new and interesting from everyone! I would like to ask....what do you use in your liquid shampoo? The only liquid shampoo I have made is potassium hydroxide based. Do you use the same cleansers and conditioners that you would use in a solid syndet bar? This will be an interesting and fun journey for me....shampoo is a little different. I think I still prefer soapmaking, but it will be very useful to know how to make shampoo that will satisfy both the "no soap" and the lye based shampoo bar groups. Lots of research ahead for me, but I like that! Nursing has taught me that learning is a lifelong journey....as life is a journey in learning! I must apologise to the person who first started this thread. It was not my intention to hijack your post. Guess my questions got the better of me. I hope we're all good.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hi Liesel! Take heart, you are not alone. Many soapers make and use lye-based shampoo bars and lye-based liquid shampoo. Myself included. It's important to rinse thoroughly after shampooing, with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it. Follow up with a vinegar rinse (1 tablespoon apple cider vinegar in 8 oz water) to restore the acid mantle of the scalp.

When I first tried a shampoo bar in 2004 it took about a year for my hair to get used to it. I even went back to OTC shampoo a few times during that year. This is typical of other soapers' experience as well. Once my hair adjusted, I've used whatever bar that we happened to be test driving in the shower without any negative effects. I now make and use my own Liquid Shampoo and just love the results. I don't even need conditioner.

Read more about the benefits of Shampoo Bars on the Chagrin Valley Site. Links:

Why Use A Natural Shampoo Bar?
https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blog/posts/why-use-a-natural-shampoo-bar/

Everything About Shampoo Bars
https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blog/posts/everything-about-shampoo-bars/

Shampoo Bar Residue
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-residue.47769/

HERBAL RINSES FOR SHAMPOO BARS
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/herbal-rinses-for-shampoo-bars.63398/

This is a good one too:
https://jrliggett.com/faq#best-results

 

[DeeAnna]

Obviously, everyone's opinions and experiences on this point will vary. My observation is the "soap as shampoo" advocates, like Zany, seem to be in the minority compared to the "syndet as shampoo" advocates. But you have to make up your own mind on what's best for you.

 

[Dahila]

Exactly, only few people can use soap on their hair, and what is most important they always had good hair,

 

[earlene]

I believe that it is not only the length of hair that matters, but the type of hair. My hair was blonde, very fine, pale as could be and super soft. Over the years, my hair changed, first to wiry and grey and now most of what I can see is white and the texture of my white hair is not at all the texture it was when blonde, nor when it was grey. As far as I can tell, different hair types may require different types of shampoos, or at least that's what the industry than sells shampoos suggests, so different products may cause different results in different hair types.

Now, as far as the skin or scalp itself, although many people react differently to different soap recipes, lye soap is still a strong alkali and the scalp generally doesn't respond well to strong alkalis I think. But of course, reports from all kinds of people varies, so perhaps I am wrong on that count.

Personally, my very long (over 3 feet in length as reminded by my granddaughter just yesterday) hair that I had for many years, turned to looking and feeling like straw within a month or two of using mild and quite lovely soap I had made and love for my skin. It was an adapted shampoo bar recipe and a very nice bar of soap. But as I continued to use it, the straw-like nature of my hair put me off shampoo bars at least while my hair was long. It's very short now, but I have not been tempted at all to try again. Not sure I will in the future, either. Even with short hair, I would not like the straw-like look or feel that I experienced with lye hair soap. Haircuts notwithstanding, the straw look may be fine for scarecrows but not for me.

 

[PCT]

Hi! I've made shampoo bars with lye, and found them to be very gentle. I did use citric acid to bring the PH closer to neutral (about 7.45 or 8), as well as apple cider vinegar to close the hair cuticle. Many people use an apple cider vinegar rinse to close the hair cuticle, making the hair smooth and shiny. I'm just curious....since there would be no lye left over in a shampoo bar (unless something went wrong with the calculations), what is it that is causing the hair damage? I've never tried a syndet bar, so I can't compare what it would feel like. Has anyone tried the ACV rinse after using a "lye based" shampoo bar? Would love to know it that helps the problem. A very interesting thread, to be sure!

Hello new here. I have short black hair, but been using home made shampoo bar , in fact any and every home made bar soap to wash my hair, still OK , black silky and shiny, maybe genes ....LOL but I do spray ACV after washing , and leave it on , and dump some home made hair wax just to tone the flyaways.

 

[Liesel Atwood]

Hi Zany-in-CO ! Thanks for your kind words. And also for the links. I'm sure I will find lots of useful info! The bars I make are infused with about 5 different herbs known for strengthening hair and promoting hair growth. Hopefully that will help some. I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!) I haven't tried the cold water for rinsing so I'll be sure to give that a try as well. Thanks again!

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!)..."

Vinegar (an acid) added to the soap batter consumes lye (a base) and creates sodium acetate (a salt). Washing with a soap that contains sodium acetate is not the same as rinsing with an acidic solution after washing.

If you don't like the smell of vinegar, use a citric acid solution instead. Just a small bit of citric acid powder per quart/liter of water is all you need.

 

[Liesel Atwood]

Hey there, new member from New Zealand! It's interesting that you mention the homemade hair wax....I just made a test "conditioner" bar, but it is more like hair wax. I think the recipe I found on pinterest had too much bees wax for my hair type. I'm enjoying the jojoba oil though!

Hey DeeAnna! Thanks so much for that advice! I'll give it a try. When I rinse my hair as normal....cool water, not hot...the shampoo bar rinses out leaving my hair squeaky clean. Just curious....it the "squeak" indicative of a closed hair cuticle, or is it simply because of our very acidic water. (We have extremely acidic water here at my house. We only use it for bathing, laundry and dishes. ) Maybe this is one of the reasons the shampoo bars work well on my hair?

 

[DeeAnna]

Maybe you're right, Liesel. I really don't know.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

But you have to make up your own mind on what's best for you.

Exactly. Thank you for saying that, DeeAnna. I appreciate it.

Exactly, only few people can use soap on their hair, and what is most important they always had good hair,

Um, with all due respect, Dahila, in my experience, "they always have good hair" isn't a factor. For one thing, I don't have "good hair". I wish I did. My hair is thin, fine, limp. With our common (Polish) ancestry -- I'm 99.6% "Eastern European" according to Ancestry dot com -- I expect your hair isn't that much different from mine.

I used to perm & bleach my hair until I turned 45 when my daughter said, "Mom, why don't you stop frying your hair, grow it out and let your natural beauty show." LOL So I did. Now I have "virgin" hair, but it's still thin and fine but also soft & shiny -- thanks to a couple drops of Argan Oil rubbed between my palms and then smoothed on the hair to prevent flyaways.

Also, with a hubby, 5 stepchildren, 2 kiddos of my own, the variety of hair is extensive. I've never heard a complaint. Quite the opposite. But I do stress "rinsing with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it (think 'Viking').

My two are Polish and Lebanese -- blue-eyed blonds with their father's olive skin. My step-kids are a mix of British, Welsh, Irish, European. One stepson, Jimmy, is 3% Neanderthal! LOL I used to give them haircuts when they were young. His hair was so thick it would slide off the scissors-- almost impossible to cut -- but very nice hair in the long run. My son, Peter, had thick blond hair through his teens and well into adulthood. Gorgeous! The rest were pretty much blessed with good, if not great hair.

As I've mentioned before, my hubby's hair benefited from using my "Palm Olive" bar in the shower. He followed the cool-water rinse routine, never even tried an acid rinse, and his fine, thin white hair was so pretty & shiny, no yellow at all, every time he went out the door.

I should say, my mentors in the early days of learning to make soap were kind and generous individuals who shared their experience and encouraged me and supported me in my journey. They are largely responsible for what success I have achieved in using soap as shampoo. For them, I am most grateful.

I am also grateful for the SMF "Powers-that-be" for allowing me to share what I know, based on my experience. It wasn't that long ago that this subject was banned. Paying it forward is the way I express gratitude to those who have gone before me.

I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!) ... Thanks again!

You're very welcome, Liesel! Keep in mind, that the first year of using a lye-based shampoo has its ups & downs, but eventually, you will find that the hair/scalp has its way of adjusting to the new treatment and eventually you won't need to use an acid rinse at all. I don't have chaper & verse on it, but I read that the acid mantle of the scalp returns in as little as 20 minutes after shampooing.

You can also use beer as a final rinse... leave it on to add volume while styling your hair or rinse out. Non-domestic beer is said to have more beneficial qualities than what we brew here in the States.

You may like this Parsley Lemon Rinse from Catherine Bardey's book, "Making Soap and Scents":
Juice of one lemon
2 oz finely chopped parsley (for added shine)
8 oz water
Bring water to boil, add parsley, and let stand for 5 minutes. Strain. Add lemon juice and allow to cool. Pour rinse onto freshly shampooed (& conditioned optional) hair. Be sure to keep your eyes shut because the high level of acidity stings. Rinse thoroughly with as cool a water rinse as you can stand.

That was one of my favorite rinses when I first started using Shampoo bars. I stopped because I got lazy!

 

[Dahila]

Zany this is why you like the soap, cause it makes our fine hair thicker, I tried and it is not working for me, I am paranoiac about loosing more. Fine blond hair (color on hazelnut) and frigging limp. I am happy with my syndets and the hair is shiny, My hair was dull on soap. I used it for over 3 months and I had to wash it every other day, with syndet twice a week is good for me. No offense taken Zany

 

[Appalasia]

Oooh this topic....

If you search enough in this forum you'll find that many did try shampooing with lye based shampoo bars and after an extended period learned that lye+hair is a big no no.

Someone here had to shave her hair off....

I have an uncle who uses whatever his body soap is on his hair. His advantage is, his hair is very short to begin with and even if he had to shave it he won't mind lol. I think it's us gals with longer hair who will have problems.

When I did try a lye based shampoo bar my scalp was awesome but my hair wasn't.

The consensus is, you're better off with a syndet shampoo bar, if you don't want liquid ones.. In my case, hair is lovely, scalp is not liking it.

I've been testing syndets now for close to two years and still can't get a balance of good scalp and hair. I'm very tempted to attempt making some, if not for the cost.

Very good to know ty!!!!!

 

[MickeyRat]

I'll chime in and say that I've used lye based shampoo bars for over a year. I do rinse thoroughly but, I don't lower the temperature. I also use a vinegar rinse (tbls vinegar, cup of water, 6 drops rosemary EO, 6 drops tea tree oil and 3 drops jojoba oil) that I put on right after I get out of the shower and leave in. I'm a man that is well past the age that a lot of men go bald but, I'm blessed with a thick head of hair. I don't wear it especially short. So far, I have no issue with what I'm doing. My hair looks fine.

I'll add that this is a hobby for me and I give my soap away but, because of what I've read regarding shampoo bars, I keep those just for me.

 

[Karen jw]

I've been using lye based shampoo bars for at least 5 years now. I found regular shampoo irritated my scalp to the point that I thought I had an infestation
I started with soap from the funky soap shop which I found expensive but worth it not to have the itch.
I have long curly hair and it took a few months for my hair and scalp to adjust and to get the routine right.
My hair felt waxy and unpleasant at first but soon adjusted.
They recommend rinsing with a vinegar rinse which I do occasionally but mostly forget.
I always do a cold rinse and always have, whatever the shampoo I was using.
Every soap I have since made (I just completed my 4th batch today so that's not many and my last batch was a liquid Castile soap) I have used on my hair with great success and so far have not had to shave my head
I have heard that lye based soap will fade a colour if you happen to dye your hair, but I never noticed this when I was using henna for 4 of those years. I stopped using henna to colour my hair a year ago and it is still there where it hasn't grown out yet.

Lye based shampoo? I love it

 

[dixiedragon]

I'll chime in and say that I've used lye based shampoo bars for over a year. I do rinse thoroughly but, I don't lower the temperature. I also use a vinegar rinse (tbls vinegar, cup of water, 6 drops rosemary EO, 6 drops tea tree oil and 3 drops jojoba oil) that I put on right after I get out of the shower and leave in. I'm a man that is well past the age that a lot of men go bald but, I'm blessed with a thick head of hair. I don't wear it especially short. So far, I have no issue with what I'm doing. My hair looks fine.

I'll add that this is a hobby for me and I give my soap away but, because of what I've read regarding shampoo bars, I keep those just for me.

How long is "not especially short"? Ear length? Chin? Shoulder? Longer?

Wikipedia tells me that the average hair growth for people is 6 inches per year. So if your hair is, say, ear length, no part of it is older than 1 year. Meanwhile, my hair is 14 inches from the nape of my neck. So the bottom 6 inches of mine is 4-5 years old, if I assume that to the nape of my neck is 1 year. Using a high pH cleanser (soap) fluffs up the hair cuticles.

This is about colored hair, but it's the most scientific I could find:
http://colurehaircare.com/2017/06/2...-level-hair-color-highlights-bleach-balayage/

If you have highlights, balayage, bleached and or color treated hair, likely the hair came into contact with a high alkali substance to change the hair’s cuticle, and then, it was “neutralized” with an acidic substance to flatten the cuticle again. This chemical process will cause damage to the hair shaft, after this process the proper acidic hair products are needed to rebuild protein bonds, hydrate, close the hair cuticle, protect and preserve hair color, highlights, bleach and or balayage.
​

The issue with using soap on your hair is that it's doing damage you can't see. If you have short hair, no biggie - you're cutting it off. But if you have medium or long hair, it becomes more problematic. Once it leaves the scalp, hair is dead. So damage is permanent. Once the hair is brittle, split ends, breaking off, etc...There's not anything you can really do. It seems like in the coloring process, you fluff up the cuticles with the coloring, but then you immediately (within an hour or two) are smoothing them back down and performing other treatments, so the damage is minimal and you are protecting the strand.

 

[Greenthoughts]

I'm another one who has been using my shampoo bar for 2 years (maybe 3, at least 2) with nonissues, in faCT my hair seems to be getting stronger, and barely any falls out now, compared to handfuls a few years ago.
I still use conditioner (my hair is to my lower back) and herbal ACV rinse that I leave in. I use comfrey, nettles, rosemary & peppermint infused in olive oil in the soap, and the same herb blend.infused in the ACV.
Maybe genetics, maybe hair type, maybe our water here..but for the long term, lye based shampoo bars have worked wonders for my scalp and hair.
So interesting reading all the comments..and that parsley rinse looks good...