Semi successful corner pour - HELP!

[Dawni]

Ok this is gonna be one long reply lol

My mistake. I misunderstood your response.

No worries But I've noted what you said about SB and hand mixing for future soaps. Thank you.

For me I just shrug and embrace it cuz I like it
But I don't really think that it is new people doing anything wrong or being taught wrong.
I know of a soaper, an old soaper with years of experience ... not on this forum.... who gets ash but will NEVER admit it. They just get rid of it so no one sees it. Like it is some trade secret
I can show you a pic of a dark soap that looks AWESOME with the ash I got on it

I wanna see! Hehehe.. I don't mind ash either. I had a black n white with green soap that had it and I liked how it seemed to emphasize the grooves of the swirls. I just wonder, is all

No offense taken here, Lin. None at all. I'm delighted you piped up with your thoughts. I agree, there are many variables, but I bet "taking a water discount" is the one thing that's common among all the variables that might be responsible for soda ash that shows up in recipes in use today.

For example, and getting back to Dawni's latest effort, a 2:1 water-to-lye ratio, or 1.7:1 I saw in an earlier batch makes no sense to me -- with all the other stuff going on. "1.7:1" is what I found worked best for my No Slime Castile, after 12 years of R & D -- the "magic" happened after adjusting the SF to 0% and using seawater to harden the previously soft soap. Would I recommend it for every batch of soap you make? No way.

I started with using % of oils, then learned about lye ratio early on and have used that since. I have been experimenting with less water, mainly in my HP soaps, to see if it helps minimize warping. I have a badly warped soap that's now cured only 6mos and I wanted to see if not having that much water to lose might help. I figure, more or less water, if at the end I still get soap, what's the harm in trying less. So far it has worked fine in most, but I think HP is a lil more forgiving and it's easier to fix mistakes, like throwing a lil extra water if it doesn't look like it wants to gel for example.

OT (Please forgive me, Dawni, as I reminisce
When I first started soaping, there was no YouTube videos where you could learn to soap. I was mostly self-taught. When I first joined HCS (Hand Crafted Soap) Forum in 2004, many members were maybe one generation away from someone in the family who made soap at home. Online recipes often included "1 can of Red Devil Lye" as an ingredient. No mention of weight. LOL

At that time, I calculated the lye amount by hand, using a SAP index I found in a book, and pencil and paper. MMS had the only online calculator and it's "full water" value was 41%. They now show a range of water to % of oils in the formula. They still don't show fatty acid content in the results. "Sooz", the predecessor to SoapCalc came along later.

S'Nuff for now.

HTH

No problem hehe I like stories from old timers

I don't think it has anything to do with water - I soap at 25% (or 3:1) lye solution and still get soda ash, especially if a soap sets up and can be cut quickly, I'll get it all over the bars. I've noticed it more since I switched from OO to RBO, which makes me wonder if RBO has a slower saponification rate so my bars are not fully saponified when being cut, leaving free sodium to react with the air. [note: I have no idea if oils really have different saponification rates, it's just something I have wondered based on the differences I see in how different recipes setup with the same sat:unsat ratios and I have noticed my RBO recipe needs a touch more time to setup.]

Now that's something to think about. This batch did not have RBO though, but I should recheck the other ones and see if I can find a difference. Probably not, as I wouldn't have a control sample, but still, it's one thing to observe in the future.

How long after pouring did you unmold and cut? If you didn't gel (it doesn't look like it gelled by the photos), it can still be saponifying for a couple days. This looks like my soap when I cut it a bit too soon because I'm impatient. It can feel very firm to the touch but still be too soft to cut without some crumbles and cracks.

I would try the same recipe but wait longer to cut and see if that makes a difference.

Ash is a pain and my post is just about the cracks and crumbles.

I unmolded after about 8hrs. I forgot to line the plastic mold and wanted to see if it stuck but it popped right off when I turned it over. I left it for another 5hrs or so before cutting. It was firmer than cheese then though.. Next try I'll leave it longer in the mold and longer to cut.

It's summer now and always hot, and previous CPs I made did gel (I think) on their own, but you're right, maybe not this one.

About Dawni's soap texture and cracking:

I made a soap a week ago: 31% water, no additives other than mica and fo (Nurture's Peace and Love). It took 5 days to cut, was still soft with a dry chalky texture, with some minor cracking similar to what she got. I could mold it like Play-Doh! Since I made 3 soaps from this one batch - the only variable was the fragrance oil so that's what I blamed it on.

The soap is "recovering" and will be fine when it cures.

So - just another possibility to consider.

I didn't scent this soap because, after 2 prior failed attempts I did not want to waste EOs in case this failed too. In a way it did so good call I think lol. I don't have FOs. The crumbles that fell off however, when touched, crumbled even further to a coarse powder. Never had the before.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Zany, have you always lived at a higher elevation during your entire history of soap making?

Yes.

 

[penelopejane]

@Dawni
I have attached photos of 2 soaps I've made in the last 2 weeks. Exactly the same recipe and FO. The were, unfortunately, two differences between the soaps. The one on the left is perfect. The one on the right is dry and crumbly.
1. To the one on the left I added the extra water to the master lye mix and let it heat up and cool down again. So I would have soaped at about 43*C (107*F). To the one on the right I added the extra water to the oils and then added the lye so it would have heated up a little more in the mold.
2. The one on the left was poured at a light but definite trace.
The one on the right was poured at just over emulsion.

Both covered with a timber lid to a timber mold with a silicone liner and both were gelled. 32% lye concentration.

You soaped cool so it probably isn't an overheating issue.
When you hand blended part and SBd the other you might have created different traces and that might have caused the different textures.

Still no definitive answer for you, sorry.

 

[Dawni]

Ooh look at that difference!

Thank you.. I haven't revisited these soaps in a while, but the last time I did I remember the lather was difficult to produce and the bar itself still had a powdery texture although no crumbling anymore.

It's my only soap that looks pretty but isn't very nice to use lol

 

[dibbles]

I missed this the first time around, but I find it interesting. It doesn't happen often, but occasionally I will have a soap that remains very soft and is crumbly. It seems to me that it happens when I soap very cool, the soap doesn't gel and I maybe don't quite get my batter to a true emulsion. Generally I use 30-33% lye concentration. The last time it happened I was also using a FO that always seems to ash.

 

[cascarral]

Zany, have you always lived at a higher elevation during your entire history of soap making?

About Dawni's soap texture and cracking:

I made a soap a week ago: 31% water, no additives other than mica and fo (Nurture's Peace and Love). It took 5 days to cut, was still soft with a dry chalky texture, with some minor cracking similar to what she got. I could mold it like Play-Doh! Since I made 3 soaps from this one batch - the only variable was the fragrance oil so that's what I blamed it on.

The soap is "recovering" and will be fine when it cures.

So - just another possibility to consider.

I just had this happen to me, but I used EOs, not FO! Still have no idea what went wrong, then it happened again after a couple of weeks, both had rosemary EO, AC and salt... Here are the pictures, "chalk" describes perfectly I think. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soap-soft-dry-and-crumbly.76754/

 

[penelopejane]

I just had this happen to me, but I used EOs, not FO! Still have no idea what went wrong, then it happened again after a couple of weeks, both had rosemary EO, AC and salt... Here are the pictures, "chalk" describes perfectly I think. https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soap-soft-dry-and-crumbly.76754/

I use a lot less AC than you - about 1 1/4 teaspoons ppo.
I see a lot of other suggestions on the other thread - some conflicting. It is so tricky working out a problem when there are so many variables.

Do you remember at what trace you poured your soap?

 

[cascarral]

I use a lot less AC than you - about 1 1/4 teaspoons ppo.
I see a lot of other suggestions on the other thread - some conflicting. It is so tricky working out a problem when there are so many variables.

Do you remember at what trace you poured your soap?

It was a very light trace! I've never learned how to identify which kind of trace it is but I always aim for a light trace in case EOs accelerate it, also I'm always trying out designs that need light trace.

I just read your comment about temperature! I usually make bigger batches but now that I'm trying out this recipe I've been doing 400/500 grams and it cools down so so fast! The first time this happened I had a problem with one of my oils so my lye got very cold, sadly I didn't write down the soaping temp but it was at 30 celcius when I poured into the mold.

However this second time it happened I was soaping at 39 celcius, I also isolated to prevent this from happening. The day after soaping seemed a bit too soft and I thouhgt something was weird but didn't have much trouble unmolding or even cutting the first bar, today I tried cutting the rest and it crumbled down! The color of the bar seems also too light for 1 Tbs of AC.

Can I ask how you got such a dark bar with just 1 tsp of AC ppo?

I'm giving it another try today without the AC, just a plain brine bar. I discounted the water to 28% because my last attempts with 33% have been too soft and I always soap with a discount. Or do you think this could be de source of the crumbling?

 

[cascarral]

I use a lot less AC than you - about 1 1/4 teaspoons ppo.
I see a lot of other suggestions on the other thread - some conflicting. It is so tricky working out a problem when there are so many variables.

Do you remember at what trace you poured your soap?

This is the picture of today's crumbling from the soap I made last week!

 

[penelopejane]

It was a very light trace! I've never learned how to identify which kind of trace it is but I always aim for a light trace in case EOs accelerate it, also I'm always trying out designs that need light trace.

Can I ask how you got such a dark bar with just 1 tsp of AC ppo?

Try 31% lye concentration. That small difference in the amount of water really makes a difference in the recipe.

I have been trying to standardise my measurements. I am using 1.5 tsp of AC leveled (which used to be 1.25 heaped) off with a wooden stirrer. I mix 1.5 tsp with 1.5g of water (from the recipe) and let it sit for a while. Then I SB it into the mix. If you only hand blend AC in it comes out much lighter than if you SB.

I am currently thinking the crumbly problem has something to do with trace. I always soap at 42*C. I think the variable for me is the trace.

What this video it might help you discover trace. Even if you get very light trace to separate colours etc you need to hand blend or SB it a bit further. You might find it a good idea to add the EO early so you can control the reaction.

 

[cascarral]

Try 31% lye concentration. That small difference in the amount of water really makes a difference in the recipe.

I have been trying to standardise my measurements. I am using 1.5 tsp of AC leveled (which used to be 1.25 heaped) off with a wooden stirrer. I mix 1.5 tsp with 1.5g of water (from the recipe) and let it sit for a while. Then I SB it into the mix. If you only hand blend AC in it comes out much lighter than if you SB.

I am currently thinking the crumbly problem has something to do with trace. I always soap at 42*C. I think the variable for me is the trace.

What this video it might help you discover trace. Even if you get very light trace to separate colours etc you need to hand blend or SB it a bit further. You might find it a good idea to add the EO early so you can control the reaction.

Thanks so much for all this information! And for taking the time to share

I've only used water as % of oils, would you mind explaining how does lye concentration work? I read about it but cant seem to understand. Do you think the water discount has something to do with my crumbling soap?

I will make another soap next week and look after the trace! thank you!

So... if we are assuming it has something to do with trace... does the high amount of soda ash has anything to do with lye not being well mixed? Are this bars safe to use?

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks so much for all this information! And for taking the time to share

I've only used water as % of oils, would you mind explaining how does lye concentration work? I read about it but cant seem to understand. Do you think the water discount has something to do with my crumbling soap?

I will make another soap next week and look after the trace! thank you!

So... if we are assuming it has something to do with trace... does the high amount of soda ash has anything to do with lye not being well mixed? Are this bars safe to use?

Using % lye concentration (on every soap calc) is easier to compare recipes as it clearly defines what a soap maker needs to know - the amount of lye and water in the lye-water solution. Don’t worry about understanding it just use it - or read heaps of old posts especially explanations by DeeAnna on the subject.

I don’t think the lye concentration has much to do with the crumbly soap per se but if you are using 28% lye concentration and add an extra 1 tsp of water that can throw a recipe out. 31% lye concentratio is more forgiving with tiny miscalculations.

I think it might be about trace so I’d watch that video a few times and really slowly SB your next batch. Wait between SB and hand stir a bit. Be really patient and make sure it’s at light but definite trace when you are about to pour. Emulsion is ok if you have to separate to add colours but then take to light trace.

I think pouring at least at light trace and keeping it warm and going thru gel and keeping it covered either with isopropyl alcohol, Saran wrap or a tight fitting lid for at least 24hrs all prevent soda ash.

Soda ash can be washed off or steamed off. It is unsightly (to me) but won’t harm the soap or the user. The crumbly soap isn’t soda ash.

 

[cascarral]

Using % lye concentration (on every soap calc) is easier to compare recipes as it clearly defines what a soap maker needs to know - the amount of lye and water in the lye-water solution. Don’t worry about understanding it just use it - or read heaps of old posts especially explanations by DeeAnna on the subject.

I don’t think the lye concentration has much to do with the crumbly soap per se but if you are using 28% lye concentration and add an extra 1 tsp of water that can throw a recipe out. 31% lye concentratio is more forgiving with tiny miscalculations.

I think it might be about trace so I’d watch that video a few times and really slowly SB your next batch. Wait between SB and hand stir a bit. Be really patient and make sure it’s at light but definite trace when you are about to pour. Emulsion is ok if you have to separate to add colours but then take to light trace.

I think pouring at least at light trace and keeping it warm and going thru gel and keeping it covered either with isopropyl alcohol, Saran wrap or a tight fitting lid for at least 24hrs all prevent soda ash.

Soda ash can be washed off or steamed off. It is unsightly (to me) but won’t harm the soap or the user. The crumbly soap isn’t soda ash.

Wow! Thanks a lot for all the info it has been so helpful, really!

will give it ANOTHER try tomorrow... I'm acummulating enough soap to wash my whole neighborhood!

 

[Arimara]

Wow! Thanks a lot for all the info it has been so helpful, really!

will give it ANOTHER try tomorrow... I'm acummulating enough soap to wash my whole neighborhood!

I don't know about that. That charcoal soap would stain many a wash rag, judging byt the pic you shared.