Seizing FOs... (UPDATE WITH PIC)

[LJA]

Seriously. This is starting to get on my nerves. I'm batting about 50/50 with FO seizes, and I had another one tonight. "Butterfly Flower" B&BW dupe from WSP. Run away. Run faaaaaaaar away.

Excuse my french but what the ever-lovin' hell?! Is one company more prone to this (I almost exclusively deal with WSP) than others? Is everyone else having this much trouble?

Signed,
Majorly P.O'd

 

[heartsong]

x

sorry you're having such problems!!! :roll:

IMHO most reputable f/o suppliers list any c/p reactions in their f/o descriptions. if they don't i either call, email them or don't buy.

here are a few suppliers that i use that give a good description of any c/p reactions with their f/o's.

these are only a few-there are many good suppliers that bend over backwards to help us have a good experience with their products.

even with that in mind, there's always going to be an "exception to the rules" that slips thru the cracks!

we should start a list of the ones that give good info:

www.www.herbalaccents.com
www.thesage.com
www.southernsoapers.com
www.soapsupplies.net
www.symphonyscents.com

my best advice to all would be-if you don't know for sure, then ASK! it saves a lot of grief! (takes the drama out of soaping)

 

[heyjude]

Sorry that you're having seizures issues. That really stinks. I hate wasting my time, ingredients, and sanity on nasty acting batches. :evil:

Thanks for the insight into the fo suppliers, Monet!

Jude

 

[carebear]

florals are notorious for seizing, or at the very least accelerating and/or ricing. even if you read reviews that say they are well behaved you should anticipate trouble.

While WSP is not a primary supplier for me, I've soaped probably a dozen of their FOs without difficulty. But I do avoid soaping florals CP and I research all on the Scent Review Board.

 

[LJA]

Re: x

sorry you're having such problems!!! :roll:

IMHO most reputable f/o suppliers list any c/p reactions in their f/o descriptions. if they don't i either call, email them or don't buy.

here are a few suppliers that i use that give a good description of any c/p reactions with their f/o's.

these are only a few-there are many good suppliers that bend over backwards to help us have a good experience with their products.

even with that in mind, there's always going to be an "exception to the rules" that slips thru the cracks!

we should start a list of the ones that give good info:

www.www.herbalaccents.com
www.thesage.com
www.southernsoapers.com
www.soapsupplies.net
www.symphonyscents.com

my best advice to all would be-if you don't know for sure, then ASK! it saves a lot of grief! (takes the drama out of soaping)

Thanks. I like WSP because you can read the reviews of the FOs, and their shipping time is STUPID fast...I just like them in general. Great service. I just was wondering if I'm having an unusal amount of seizes or if this is normal? 50/50 might be an exaggeration. I bet for every three or four good soaps, I get a seize. Naturally, the one I just soaped has all my expensive butters and oils in it...lol. Grrrr. I need to start doing felted soap for just this situation. Still good soap with a bad case of the uglies. Butterfly Flower smells really really nice. I guess I'll have to save it for my other products.

 

[LJA]

florals are notorious for seizing, or at the very least accelerating and/or ricing. even if you read reviews that say they are well behaved you should anticipate trouble.

While WSP is not a primary supplier for me, I've soaped probably a dozen of their FOs without difficulty. But I do avoid soaping florals CP and I research all on the Scent Review Board.

Carebear - my first mistake was that they literally JUST got it in. I should've waited to see what others thought of it first. Care to share who you like to buy from?

 

[Dixie]

LJA, I am wondering if it could possibly be something else. I use Floral FO's all the time and I've never had one seize on me. The only one I've had seize was a batch I used honey in. It's just really strange that you are having so many seize on you. Can you think of anything else it could be?

 

[LJA]

Well, here's what I used tonight...
coconut
palm
olive
silk (recent addition, but used it tonight)
safflower
cocoa butter
avocado butter
shea butter
distilled water
labcolors
castor
lye (obviously)
8% superfat

All was fine until the FO hit the pot. It riced AND seized immediately. I soaped at 115.

I dunno what else it could've been. Thoughts, Dix?

 

[Dixie]

No sugars at all? or milks?

No none at all if that is all you used. Sorry your having so much trouble. I soap at 110, surely 5 degrees wouldn't make that much difference?

 

[LJA]

No sugars at all? or milks?

No none at all if that is all you used. Sorry your having so much trouble. I soap at 110, surely 5 degrees wouldn't make that much difference?

Nope. No sugars or milks. Weird huh?

 

[Dixie]

Very weird!

 

[carebear]

LJA, I am wondering if it could possibly be something else. I use Floral FO's all the time and I've never had one seize on me. The only one I've had seize was a batch I used honey in. It's just really strange that you are having so many seize on you. Can you think of anything else it could be?

Sure - I use a number of suppliers but if I had to pick just one it would be Scent Works. I also like Save On Scents, but only for a few FOs, Symphony Scents which are expensive but - like WSP - you use less. I get some from IFT (which now has a new name and only sells in bulk), a few from Aroma Haven which I just LOVE, CandleScience has a few that are great, Tony's/Southern Garden are good but very expensive, and I love Oregon Trails too.

While there ARE great suppliers and poor ones - the selection of FOs is really something you have to do one at a time. You cannot count on one supplier to make fragrance oils that will work across the board. Some suppliers seem to be better in soaps, but even they have some that don't - remember soap isn't the only product in which they are used! There are candles and other body products, and other home scenting stuff too... for which people buy and supplier supply fragrances!

While vendor reviews are good, the Scent Review Board is really your best bet. Also, post questions here because several of us have soaped many many fragrances and you might get some good information before spending your $$.

 

[heartsong]

x

carebear:

if she soaped cooler or at room temp, would she have better success?

i've noticed some of my touchier f/o's are less reactive.

my worst ones were lilac and mulberry.

 

[Dixie]

I don't know heartsong. I've used 50/50 of lilac and hyacinth together and had no problem.

I'll experiment for you tomorrow LJA, I'll make a batch of floral and soap it at 115 and see what happens. My usual is 110.

 

[LJA]

Sacrificing soap for the experiment. Taking one for the team. You get 'em, sister! :wink:

 

[Dixie]

WEll I need to know too. Better with less expensive FO than a high dollar one. Besides, I need to play my hand at handmilling IF it seizes

 

[carebear]

Re: x

carebear:

if she soaped cooler or at room temp, would she have better success?

i've noticed some of my touchier f/o's are less reactive.

my worst ones were lilac and mulberry.

Well, actually that's a maybe. I don't have the proportions, but of the oils she listed, only one (if I recall correctly) was liquid at room temp. And it's very challenging to soap a "hard oils" recipe at cool temps because then you run into other problems.

Here's my recommendation for a new FO.

Soap with at least 30% olive, and a total of at least 40% liquid oils
Soap cool - I'm talking no more than 90 degrees for both the lye water and the oils (melt, mix, cool)
Use full water. Well, no more than a 30% lye concentration
No additives that cause problems - no clay or oatmeal which can "take up" some of the water and thus accelerate trace

If all goes well, THEN take things up a notch.

I have 2 basic recipes. One is 50% liquid oils and it's the one I use for new FOs. Typically I soap at room temp or slightly warm. The other recipe is actually 100% hard oils and I soap that one quite warm - as in 115. But I NEVER test a new FO with that recipe. Cuz I HATE rebatching. If things go awry with the first recipe I can often get a bit ahead of it and come out with something decent. But with the second recipe... well since I don't rebatch I would just have a few pounds of trash instead of soap.

 

[heartsong]

x

thanks, carebear!

 

[LJA]

I actually never considered the hard oils, liquid oils thing. Interesting. I'll have to try that, and soap it cooler. Thanks guys.

 

[ChrissyB]

Follow the advice that Carebear has posted.
I almost gave up on soaping altogether I was so disheartened with seizing.
I even had Starduster offer to ring me while I was soaping to talk me through every little thing I was doing so I could identify what was going wrong.
I took a good hard look at my recipes, my oils, my temps, everything.
Shook up my recipe a bit to add more olive, or more rice bran, upped the water on new scents and known seizers, and not one seize since.
I think when you're prepared for it to happen it doesn't!