Rosemary Oleo extract

[Soapsugoii]

Ahhh I see. I had it in my brain that I was supposed to add it to the soap itself. I'm looking for a preservative that doesn't look horrible on a label, which is why I decided to try ROE. I unmolded it today. It's maybe the ugliest soap I have ever made. Doodoo brown/green and overpowering rosemary smell. Oops

 

[Fragola]

I think it is more effective to add it to your oils in bottles. ROE does have temperatures at which its properties are destroyed. So... if its only going into the soap then the soap heats up and kills the ROE its a fruitless task.

I'm not sure what you mean here ... If you're adding the ROE to oils and soap with those oils and soap heats up, we're going to find us in the same predicament.

Do you happen to know what temperatures are those which are dangerous to ROE?

 

[sudbubblez]

You don't heat up your oils in bottles. The ROE is working to prevent oxidation as soon as it is added to the bottles. It is like soaping with younger oils. I don't know how to break it down any simpler than that. Its not the same predicament because the ingredents are fresher to begin with, even if it dies off when soaping, the ingredients have oxidized less to begin with. If adding to soap, should be blended well with the base oils before adding lye and not at trace.

ROE has warnings not to use it in an alkaline environment.
It burns at 200 and greater. Sustained high temperatures wich are high but not enough to burn, degrade it. Even the synthetic preservatives and antioxidants are destroyed with heat, everything is. If soap is being hot processed, forget about ROE.
When kept in the refrigerator it will remain full strength for a month, then begins to decay slowly. Decays faster sitting in the cabinet.

It has an MSDS

 

[Fragola]

Thanks, that's useful info.

If you say it shouldn't be used in alkaline environement, I understand ROE doesn't avoid DOS in soap, just keeps your oils fresh. Which of course will delay DOS.

 

[sudbubblez]

The MSDS says it starts to burn at 200 but some suppliers list the flash point of ROE at 140. The MSDS doesn't use the term "flash point". The China manufacturers are the ones stating keep it out of an alkaline environment. ROE retailers are saying its resistant to lye (resistant, not immune)... but I am sure like most everything else that goes into CP, there may be something left in the end product but it won't be as potent.

 

[younglivingmargo]

Re: REO

I checked out ROE and found a couple of articles which I thought were interesting. However, you may have already read these articles.

http://missionpeaksoap.com/hsmg_article_roe.pdf

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapg ... xtract.htm

Also, you can just paste the word "oleoresin" in the search box and it will bring up a lot of threads. I'm serious - a lot. You might want to prepare yourself with a drink and a snack before you start reading.

I have to admit I only read a couple so I don't know how helpful they may be for you.

Thanks for the great links Hazel, I really enjoy reading them. I have a question now though. do you suggest using ROE in all yr soaps or only certain
recipes. Usually my soap recipes are a mix of about 50/50 of hard oils and soft oils sometimes that varies but thats usually the standard for me.
do u suggest me using REO? What is the percentage of hard to soft oils one should use when considering using REO.
I haven't come across this before so any advice is greatly welcomed.
Margo

 

[Hazel]

I don't use ROE. I don't have much faith in adding it to a batch and it surviving the lye. If you really want to use it, I'd suggest adding the recommended amount into new oils when you open them as an antioxidant. Of course, you could use Vitamin E instead. This would help extend the shelf life of the oils. I wouldn't worry about adding anything to hard oils like coconut and palm since they have a longer shelf life than some other oils. Also, storing oils in a cool environment or in a frig will help, too.

But this is just my opinion and hopefully someone who uses ROE can give you more info on its effectiveness in soap.

 

[Lindy]

I just wanted to jump in here to say you do not need to preserve soap. The pH of soap is between 9 - 11 and this type of environment is not friendly to bacteria, mold or mildew. ROE is only meant to slow down oxidation oils that have not yet been used. Lavender does not cause spoilage or DOS.

The most common cause of DOS is soap that is being improperly stored. Soap should not be stored where it is quite hot, nor should it be stored in direct sunlight. If you are having problems with DOS the first thing to do is look at your storage environment. When I had my store-front I found that the soaps on display in the window got DOS at an alarming pace so I knew anything being displayed there were not going to be available for sale. The other time I had problems with DOS was when I was travelling to an event and it was way hot outside. I had decided to take my truck and I had all the soaps in the back. I ended up with a lot of spoilage but it was a valuable lesson.

ETA - you're not using enough essential oil to affect your soaps, or at least you shouldn't be since generally accepted levels as safe is beneath 3%. Anything more than that is therapeutic and should not be used, even in soap. In lotions and other leave on products you should not be over 1.5%.....

 

[new12soap]

Here is a link to some interesting reading, I believe IrishLass directed me to it.

http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgDos2006.pdf

In short, certain preservatives can and do help stave off DOS in soap. Storage of both your oils and your soap do matter, but as some of us live in a very hot and humid climate there is really only so much we can control unless we buy a second refrigerator to use soley for soap storage

 

[Hazel]

I want to clarify this discussion since it seems like there is a confusion between preservative and antioxidant. Lindy is correct. You do not have to preserve soap because of the alkalinity. The lye chemically converts oil to salt of a fatty acid; example coconut oil is converted to sodium cocoate. A well balanced recipe of oils made into soap should last for years. I agree with new12soap the the storage of oils and soaps are far more important in helping to prevent DOS. Adding an antioxidant to oils will help to extend the shelf life of the oil which is why I've suggested adding an antioxidant upon opening a new container of oil.

Kevin Dunn's article is interesting. However, maybe I misunderstood it because I don't have a science background. I understood it to state that of everything he tested in soap only the combinations of BHT & EDTA, ROE & EDTA and BHT & Sodium Citrate had any significant effect on preventing DOS. Although I have seen BHT called a preservative, it is not; it is an antioxidant used to help "preserve" food - mainly extend the shelf life of either dried (dehydrated) foods and food stored in cans or a frig. EDTA is a chelating agent (stabilizer) often used in food and cosmetics and will neutralize enzymes which cause rancidity so in effect, it is a type of "preservative". I have read EDTA can help reduce soap scum and improve lather but I don't know if this is true. Sodium citrate is the salt of citric acid and is used as a "preservative" the same as other types of salt which are used to preserve some foods. It is also a pH regulator and buffer plus it helps to flavor food. I think everyone is familiar with ROE so I'm not going into it. Anyway, BHT, EDTA and Sodium Citrate are used as food "preservatives" but it must be taken into account how they are used as in dehydrated, canned, sealed and refrigerated. They have a shelf life and many of the items they are used in have recommendations of being stored in a refrigerator after being opened. I also noticed Kevin Dunn stated by combining these additives, "they lengthened the induction period beyond 300 hours". So, the combinations of these additives prevented the development of DOS by 12.5 days.

Kevin Dunn does state "As a result of our tests we suggest that by using 0.1% of your oil weight of BHT and Sodium Citrate you may altogether prevent the appearance of DOS". Please note he didn't state "will"; he stated "may". Now, I'm fairly sure combining some additives "will" help to extend the shelf life of soaps but so will a well balanced recipe. I also think it's great that there are people like Kevin Dunn who are interested in experimenting and willing to share their knowledge. It is especially helpful for people who live in unfavorable environmental conditions to learn about anything which will help them extend the shelf life of their soaps.

However, I think the point is most soaps made with fresh oils and properly formulated do not require an additional preservative or antioxidant added to the batch. Several members have posted about having soap which are several years old and are still as good as they were when originally made. However, there is a probability any batches made with oils which have started to oxidize will become rancid. I personally prefer to use new oils and my recipes which have proven to be stable over time rather than add more ingredients which would increase the overall cost. But I'm cheap that way. :wink: I'm also fortunate to live in an area where normally the hot and humid weather only lasts for 3-4 months. I sympathize with the members who live in predominately hot and humid regions and I would recommend them trying any additives which may help to prevent DOS.

 

[new12soap]

That is how I read it, too. I used the word "preservative" because that is how they described them in the article, and I really know almost nothing about them, but I agree that "antioxidant" would have been more accurate. They are NOT interchangeable!