Replacing water with vinegar

[Quilter99755]

I use it for the calculation for Citric Acid and that seems to work. I just didn't know if the way I put in the Vinegar was the way you used the formula. I also do HP and I've give my cooks about 20 minutes, give or take a bit. But I have never used vinegar. Guess I will have to try that out, too!

 

[Kcryss]

I use it for the calculation for Citric Acid and that seems to work. I just didn't know if the way I put in the Vinegar was the way you used the formula. I also do HP and I've give my cooks about 20 minutes, give or take a bit. But I have never used vinegar. Guess I will have to try that out, too!

Yeah, just decided to stop being lazy and did the math. lol
You're right. The calculator is wrong and likely the cause of my 1.5 hr cook times.
100g of 5% vinegar will require an additional 3.57 grams of NaOH but should not increase the amount of water in the recipe.

So I just threw a hypothetical recipe into the calculator with no additives.
water needed = 185.18
lye needed = 68.59

Added 100g vinegar and now the calculation shows
water needed = 94.8g (not including the 100g vinegar)
lye needed = 72.15
So, the lye calculation is almost dead on with a difference of 3.56 and the water increased by 9.62g. Not sure if that is enough to make the difference in cook time I was experiencing, but maybe the CA is off too.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'd say this needs to get fixed if the Soapmaking Friend isn't calculating the water correctly when vinegar is being used in a recipe. @Angie -- can you help?

Bear in mind that 100 grams of vinegar is 5 g of acetic acid and 95 g of water. I'm not digging into the math at all right now, just taking these comments at face value.

@Kcryss maybe you can confirm the Soapmaking Friend calculations are correct or not?

 

[Kcryss]

Yeah, just decided to stop being lazy and did the math. lol
You're right. The calculator is wrong and likely the cause of my 1.5 hr cook times.
100g of 5% vinegar will require an additional 3.57 grams of NaOH but should not increase the amount of water in the recipe.

So I just threw a hypothetical recipe into the calculator with no additives.
water needed = 185.18
lye needed = 68.59

Added 100g vinegar and now the calculation shows
water needed = 94.8g (not including the 100g vinegar)
lye needed = 72.15
So, the lye calculation is almost dead on with a difference of 3.56 and the water increased by 9.62g. Not sure if that is enough to make the difference in cook time I was experiencing, but maybe the CA is off too.

Checked CA calculation ... same thing. Wrong. That will teach me to trust other peoples calculations.
From now on, I will do my own.
Thanks to @DeeAnna for her SoapyStuff info I have the necessary calculations to do it myself.

I'd say this needs to get fixed if the Soapmaking Friend isn't calculating the water correctly when vinegar is being used in a recipe. @Angie -- can you help?

The CA calculation as well. Does the same thing.

@DeeAnna

Ohh ... good point. Didn't think of that. Let me check.

So, yes. Still off, just not by as much now.
5g removed from the liquid total should increase liquid needed by the same 5g, but is increasing an additional 4.62g for the same 100g of vinegar.

 

[cmzaha]

What the calculator SMF is doing is figuring the extra liquid requirement for the extra lye amount necessary for the vinegar.

What I still find the calculator does not do is subtract the vinegar amount from the required liquid, even if you turn on the "liquid discount" box. This is why I do not depend on the calculator to do my calculations for vinegar usage which I pretty much use in all my soaps.

Kcyrss, I am still wondering if you are actually using double the amount of liquid needed for your batch. Or at least the required liquid plus your added vinegar

 

[Kcryss]

What the calculator SMF is doing is figuring the extra liquid requirement for the extra lye amount necessary for the vinegar. What I still find the calculator does not do is subtract the vinegar amount from the required liquid, even if you turn on the "liquid discount" box. This is why I do not depend on the calculator to do my calculations for vinegar usage which I pretty much use in all my soaps. Kcyrss, I am still wondering if you are actually using double the amount of liquid needed for your batch.

Yeah, I think the calculation may have been the problem with the loooong cook times as well. I'm going to try another batch with just the addition of vinegar, but will do that calculation myself and also check it against SMF calculator.

 

[GML]

Yeah, I think the calculation may have been the problem with the loooong cook times as well. I'm going to try another batch with just the addition of vinegar, but will do that calculation myself and also check it against SMF calculator.

Don't worry, I'll skip the "told you so" dance.

 

[Kcryss]

Don't worry, I'll skip the "told you so" dance.

LOL, go ahead, I can take it!

 

[GML]

LOL, go ahead, I can take it!

Glad you resolved the issue.

 

[Kcryss]

@DeeAnna
Here's the math:

So, if I make this recipe using 13.5g CA and 100g vinegar, I will need to use 139.74g NaOH.
Original lye calculation 127.74 + soapystuff increase (CA) 8.42 + soapystuff increase (vin) 3.57 = 139.74
Liquid should be original calc 344.89 + increase for vinegar 5g = 349.89 (water 249.89, vin 100)

Please someone correct me if these calculations are wrong.

 

[Pepsi Girl]

I have low superfatted since my second year of soaping. I mentioned my low superfat once in a forum and someone told me they would not touch my soap with a 10' pole. I just replied not to judge what you have not tried...My drains did not like all the oil going down the drain so I learned to make a nice balanced soap with low superfat, which has nothing to do with the vinegar. My plumbing bills became a lot less

So when you say low super fat, how low? I don’t think my plumbing likes it either!

 

[cmzaha]

So when you say low super fat, how low? I don’t think my plumbing likes it either!

I superfat at 2% other than soleseif and salt bars.

@DeeAnna
Here's the math:
View attachment 44063

So, if I make this recipe using 13.5g CA and 100g vinegar, I will need to use 139.74g NaOH.
Original lye calculation 127.74 + soapystuff increase (CA) 8.42 + soapystuff increase (vin) 3.57 = 139.74
Liquid should be original calc 344.89 + increase for vinegar 5g = 349.89 (water 249.89, vin 100)

Please someone correct me if these calculations are wrong.

Your calculations are correct although confusing to me, just too many calculations. Or maybe I should say too much verbiage for me. I keep things simple and I do not change the initial water requirement. So I would use 139 g NaOH (rounded down) and 245 g water with 100 g vinegar.

I simply multiply my CA amount by 0.624 and my vinegar usage by 0.0357 to come up with the extra NaOH.

 

[Prysm]

I've let the people of the SoapMakingFriend know of the water/vinegar issue and gave them this thread to check out.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I deleted this post because the way I was doing the calculation was wrong...

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't have a dog in this fight, because I don't use Soapmaking Friend to create my soap recipes, nor do I have any particular input into how it is designed.

I am starting to recommend this calc to other soap makers because it does allow people to use additives like vinegar without having to deal with the math. If the calculations are not complete and correct, however, that's not good.

I really appreciate how responsive the developers have been. I'm certain it's been a daunting task to slog through all the features people have asked for, and the developers have done a bang-up job of responding to the challenge. This calc has the potential to have an excellent reputation in the soap making community.

@Mobjack Bay --

Commercial vinegar sold for cooking and household use is 5% acetic acid. About 1 fluid ounce (2 tablespoons, 1 ounce by weight, or 28 grams) of this commercial vinegar contains 1.5 g acetic acid.

1 oz by weight (28 g) of commercial 5% vinegar neutralizes about 1 g NaOH. 1 oz by weight (28 g) of commercial 5% vinegar neutralizes about 1.4 g KOH.

 

[atiz]

I have been doing full water replacement with vinegar based on the SMF calculations. I did not double check the math, so this has been helpful, even though I had no problem at all with the SMF-recommended amounts. I assume the amount of water is more important in HP than in CP.

 

[Kcryss]

@atiz I believe that is correct. In my case because I was using both ca and vinegar and the calculation being wrong for both I was getting a double whammy. Not enough lye and too much water for ca, then more water for vinegar. It was taking a really long time to cook. With CP, it would maybe take a bit longer to saponify but probably wouldn't be as noticable.

 

[Kcryss]

@DeeAnna , I agree about that calculator and have recommended it in threads many times. I am going to do my own calculations for any vinegar or ca that I use, but will still use the calculator.
Does this information need to get to anyone in particular or has that been taken care of with your notice to the admin?

 

[DeeAnna]

See post 53, @Kcryss. Angie has routed this issue to the right folks.

 

[Kcryss]

See post 53, @Kcryss. Angie has routed this issue to the right folks.

Oops, didn't see that. Thank you!