Replacing Palm Oil

[DianaMoon]

I do realize that this is a subject which has been nearly done to death, but I have a specific question that hasn't been addressed, so here goes.

I'm using Soap Calc as my reference.

I keyed in 100% palm oil, and got this. (cut & pasted bcos I can't insert images)

Lauric	0
Myristic	1
Palmitic	44
Stearic	5
Ricinoleic	0
Oleic	39​
Linoleic	10
Linolenic	0

I've read in various places that a good sub for palm is Babassu Oil. But its profile is far different:

Lauric	50
Myristic	20
Palmitic	11
Stearic	4
Ricinoleic	0
Oleic	10​
Linoleic	0
Linolenic	0

Since I'm curious about avocado oil (plus I have some, for cooking) I keyed this in and found something far closer to palm:

Lauric	0
Myristic	0
Palmitic	20
Stearic	2
Ricinoleic	0
Oleic	58​
Linoleic	12
Linolenic	0

I'm at a loss to understand why some sites suggest babassu oil as a palm sub.

 

[AliOop]

Babassu and coconut oils are good replacements for palm kernel oil - not palm oil.

The closest replacement for palm oil is lard.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I'm at a loss to understand why some sites suggest babassu oil as a palm sub.

Because it isn't. Tell them that they should first understand FA profiles before giving questionable advice.

The delicate point about palm is really that there is no 1:1 replacement. You absolutely have to reformulate a palm recipe when you want a close matching no-palm version. Lard and cocoa butter come close (but have more stearic acid). Avocado, RBO and cottonseed oil are softer, but have their place with bringing considerable palmitic acid content.

There are a few exotic high-palmitic competitors (japan wax, pequi) but they come with their own issues, and are outright unjustifiable from an economic point of view.

 

[DianaMoon]

Because it isn't. Tell them that they should first understand FA profiles before giving questionable advice.

I'm not saying it is. I'm asking a question. I know that bad advice abounds on the internet which is why I checked the profiles on soap calc.

I read it here.

https://www.brambleberry.com/ingred...lm-oil-alternatives-in-cold-process-soap.html
The closest substitute for palm oil is babassu oil, which comes from a native Brazilian palm tree.

Sure, I understand that there's no exact sub, but good enough is good enough for me, and going through an elaborate sub process isn't worth it.

But I suspected that the info about babassu oil was bad, and it was on a standard soapmaking website and hopefully, someone will see this here.

 

[AliOop]

I'm not saying it is. I'm asking a question. I know that bad advice abounds on the internet which is why I checked the profiles on soap calc.

I read it here.

https://www.brambleberry.com/ingred...lm-oil-alternatives-in-cold-process-soap.html
The closest substitute for palm oil is babassu oil, which comes from a native Brazilian palm tree.

Sure, I understand that there's no exact sub, but good enough is good enough for me, and going through an elaborate sub process isn't worth it.

But I suspected that the info about babassu oil was bad, and it was on a standard soapmaking website and hopefully, someone will see this here.

That's really surprising for Brambleberry to make such a glaring error. I recommend contacting them and pointing it out so they don't continue to mislead folks.

Owl, I agree that lard isn't a perfect replacement. I was going to suggest a blend of lard, AO, and perhaps some soy wax, but didn't want to go too far into the weeds.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

You have done the exactly right thing!

I read it here.

https://www.brambleberry.com/ingred...lm-oil-alternatives-in-cold-process-soap.html
The closest substitute for palm oil is babassu oil, which comes from a native Brazilian palm tree.

That page is very weird to read. Why don't they just divide it into palm (→ lard, tallow, mango, cocoa, shea), and palm kernel (→ babaçu, coconut) replacements? IMHO, this smells like FUD marketing to sell expensive babaçu oil to customers who don't have a FA profile background.

“Another option is to increase the coconut oil up to 33%. A higher amount of coconut oil can be drying, so you can increase the superfat or add moisturizing oils like avocado and sweet almond.”

How do they imagine replacing palm by raising coconut should work out? Increase the soluble lauric moiety, just to also increase the soluble oleic oils? Yes, the soap might have similar hardness, but not caring about a disappointing longevity likely won't delight customers.
I wish such articles were written by soapmakers, rather than marketing folks.

Sorry, rant over.

 

[DianaMoon]

Looks like I discovered something -

Bramble-gate?
Palm-gate?
Babassu-gate? (my favorite)

I think I will write to Brambleberry next week about this.

I'm also going to tinker with using avocado oil to sub for palm. Of course results won't be immediate.

You have done the exactly right thing!

I wish such articles were written by soapmakers, rather than marketing folks.

Sorry, rant over.

Ranting fine. There is so much nonsense & fluff written on soapmaking sites. For example, one site touted the "the vitamins and minerals" in avocado oil. They aren't going to make a bit of difference to your skin in a soap - it's when you ingest them in food that they matter.

 

[HoliHealerz]

Babassu and coconut oils are good replacements for palm kernel oil - not palm oil.

The closest replacement for palm oil is lard.

Palm oil alternatives
The closest substitute for palm oil is babassu oil, which comes from a native Brazilian palm tree. It adds the same firming and moisturizing properties as coconut and palm. However, the babassu does have a lighter feeling on the skin and it absorbs quickly. You can replace some or all of the palm with babassu. Just remember to run your recipe through the Lye Calculator after any substitutions.
https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/palm-oil-alternatives/

Ranting fine. There is so much nonsense & fluff written on soapmaking sites. For example, one site touted the "the vitamins and minerals" in avocado oil. They aren't going to make a bit of difference to your skin in a soap - it's when you ingest them in food that they matter.

Actually, I do not wish to dispute BUT they do make a difference on the skin for the same reason that we stay away from SLS which also are cancer causing agents. Being the largest organ of the body, anything that the skin draws in regularly, will affect it in the same way that it heals over time. What we use on our skin does matter, even if it is washed off because pores absorb nutrients AND toxins.

Actually, I do not wish to dispute BUT they do make a difference on the skin for the same reason that we stay away from SLS which also are cancer causing agents. Being the largest organ of the body, anything that the skin draws in regularly, will affect it in the same way that it heals over time. What we use on our skin does matter, even if it is washed off because pores absorb nutrients AND toxins.

In the same way, a soap maker SHOULD have the best skin - because she/he should know the skin and how it reacts to oils as well.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

The closest substitute for palm oil is babassu oil, which comes from a native Brazilian palm tree. It adds the same firming and moisturizing properties as coconut and palm.

The more often I read this sentence, the worse it gets.

We're not even talking about the fact that soap is not “moisturising”, but “not stripping” at best. A “moisturising” soap has failed its first and foremost purpose.

 

[HoliHealerz]

The more often I read this sentence, the worse it gets.

We're not even talking about the fact that soap is not “moisturising”, but “not stripping” at best. A “moisturising” soap has failed its first and foremost purpose.

I was just making sure to quote what was written since I have been accused of misrepresenting although I am very careful in the words I use so I was just showing what was written exactly as it was written with proof of source. Is there a difference between conditioning and moisturizing? if something is conditioned, it is done so through oils which is technically moisturizing. I think that as long as the skin is cleaned, and if it then feels moisturized then why can we not say it is in actual fact moisturized? Just following scientific logic here.

 

[DianaMoon]

Actually, I do not wish to dispute BUT they do make a difference on the skin for the same reason that we stay away from SLS which also are cancer causing agents. Being the largest organ of the body, anything that the skin draws in regularly, will affect it in the same way that it heals over time. What we use on our skin does matter, even if it is washed off because pores absorb nutrients AND toxins.

I was referring specially to the "vitamins and minerals" which is the reason I quoted it *and* to point out that it is nothing more than marketing fluff.

 

[AliOop]

I think that as long as the skin is cleaned, and if it then feels moisturized then why can we not say it is in actual fact moisturized? Just following scientific logic here.

You might want to refer to MarieGale.com for information about what claims may and may not be made, and what those claims require for labeling and potentially testing requirements. If you are in the US, calling your soap "moisturizing" violates FDA labeling laws unless you properly label your soap as a cosmetic, complying with all the rules for the cosmetic category.

Also, I did not accuse you of mispresenting anything from Brambleberry; I was very clear above that Brambleberry's information, as stated on their site and quoted by you, is FLAT OUT WRONG. That is their fault, not yours.

You did, however, completely misrepresent what DeeAnna said on her website about the need for curing HP soap.

 

[DianaMoon]

The more often I read this sentence, the worse it gets.

We're not even talking about the fact that soap is not “moisturising”, but “not stripping” at best. A “moisturising” soap has failed its first and foremost purpose.

Yes, exactly!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm using Soap Calc as my reference.I keyed in 100% palm oil, and got this. (cut & pasted bcos I can't insert images)

Hi Diana!

It's nice to see you again! It's been a while.

Here's an easier way to compare oils on SoapCalc when the need arises. You can then take a screen shot of your result to post here... I just click and drag it into the post from my iMac desktop.

As for that quote from Bramble Berry, it could be 20 years old! LOL That's how long they have been around and Anne Marie was communicating a lot early on and to this day. If t'were me, I wouldn't hesitate to send Customer Service an email pointing out the error. It's a doozy! To my mind at least.

For what it's worth, I sub lard or shea butter for palm oil in a well-balanced formula.
HTH

 

[DianaMoon]

Hi Diana! View attachment 64512 It's nice to see you again! It's been a while.

Here's an easier way to compare oils on SoapCalc when the need arises. You can then take a screen shot of your result to post here... I just click and drag it into the post from my iMac desktop.

As for that quote from Bramble Berry, it could be 20 years old! LOL That's how long they have been around and Anne Marie was communicating a lot early on and to this day. If t'were me, I wouldn't hesitate to send Customer Service an email pointing out the error. It's a doozy! To my mind at least.

For what it's worth, I sub lard or shea butter for palm oil in a well-balanced formula.
HTH

Hi! I haven't soaped for a long time. Thanks also for the comparison tip.

Speaking of crazy info on the net, everywhere I read that avocado oil is softening, but I just read somewhere (not Bramble) that due to its relatively high palmitic, it's hardening.



Bad info abounds.... the only way to find out is to do it. I will, and I'll report my results here.

 

[HoliHealerz]

I was referring specially to the "vitamins and minerals" which is the reason I quoted it *and* to point out that it is nothing more than marketing fluff.

It was understood. I would explain it all but I fear that it will not be received the way intended so I will let it go but those vitamins and minerals are still effective in soap.

You might want to refer to MarieGale.com for information about what claims may and may not be made, and what those claims require for labeling and potentially testing requirements. If you are in the US, calling your soap "moisturizing" violates FDA labeling laws unless you properly label your soap as a cosmetic, complying with all the rules for the cosmetic category.

Also, I did not accuse you of mispresenting anything from Brambleberry; I was very clear above that Brambleberry's information, as stated on their site and quoted by you, is FLAT OUT WRONG. That is their fault, not yours.

You did, however, completely misrepresent what DeeAnna said on her website about the need for curing HP soap.

I merely quoted 'better to' and distinguished from 'have to'. If that is misrepresenting then I apologize. But I try to be careful about what or how I say things because the work I do requires it all the time and if I don't watch my words they will back fire so I know that I was very specific in making a distinction between 'need' and 'better to' and hot vs cold although I didnt mention cold at all. I quoted the article specifically for that and nothing else was said. So I never actually misrepresented by quoting. Not there and not here.
Thank you for clarifying the laws. Yes I am aware that no one can legally make the claim that soap 'will do' something and in fact 'soap queen' often states that very clearly. However, we CAN say the facts. That a particular soap contains for example grape seed oil and grape seed oil is known for its such and such scientific characteristics.
We can also give testimonials. I have several.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Speaking of crazy info on the net, everywhere I read that avocado oil is softening, but I just read somewhere (not Bramble) that due to its relatively high palmitic, it's hardening.

Not so sure if this is bad information, or just unfortunate/missing context. Avocado for sure makes much softer soap than palm oil when used as a 1:1 replacement. But it has appreciable content of palmitic acid and comparatively low PUFA, so among the so-called soft oils, it indeed is one of the “hardest”, and can contribute to harder soap when you replace very soft oils by it (think of almond, apricot, safflower, sunflower, canola, and to a lesser degree olive).
Avocado oil is one of the few valuable “intermediate” building blocks for animal&palm-avoiding recipes, that allows you to lift palmitate at the expense of the budget for other soft oils.

those vitamins and minerals are still effective in soap.

What is claimed without evidence can be refuted without evidence too. Everyone would be happy to get some new input on this old topic. But until then, the only vitamin that is ensured to have some effect in soap is vitamin E aka tocopherol, and its effect is less for the user of the soap, but the soap itself. And even then it depends on context if it is beneficial or detrimental (pro-oxidation).

And minerals are something that is wrong in oils in the first place. We're even adding chelators to mask the effect of minerals in soap. For good reasons (DOS).

 

[DianaMoon]

Not so sure if this is bad information, or just unfortunate/missing context. Avocado for sure makes much softer soap than palm oil when used as a 1:1 replacement. But it has appreciable content of palmitic acid and comparatively low PUFA, so among the so-called soft oils, it indeed is one of the “hardest”, and can contribute to harder soap when you replace very soft oils by it (think of almond, apricot, safflower, sunflower, canola, and to a lesser degree olive).
Avocado oil is one of the few valuable “intermediate” building blocks for animal&palm-avoiding recipes, that allows you to lift palmitate at the expense of the budget for other soft oils.

My mileage varies. "Bad information" = incorrect. But not necessarily harmful. It's just semantic so let's leave it.

In any case, I'm glad I looked up the profiles on Soap Calc to see what was going on. I'm not sure what motivated me but I got a feeling that this had to be checked out.

What is claimed without evidence can be refuted without evidence too.

I like that.

Everyone would be happy to get some new input on this old topic. But until then, the only vitamin that is ensured to have some effect in soap is vitamin E aka tocopherol, and its effect is less for the user of the soap, but the soap itself. And even then it depends on context if it is beneficial or detrimental (pro-oxidation).

It's just common sense, which isn't always right, but in this case, yes. Or maybe I've just become absolutely sick of marketing BS in my old age. The idea that "vitamins and minerals" will do anything to your skin when you apply it for a few seconds and then wash it off with water is patently absurd.[/QUOTE]

And minerals are something that is wrong in oils in the first place. We're even adding chelators to mask the effect of minerals in soap. For good reasons (DOS).

Good point.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

For anyone still reading this thread who originally was looking for a replacement for palm oil in a recipe, I recommend reading the Lovin’ Soap Studio’s fabulous Soap Making Oils page. Scroll down 2/3 of the page for the fatty acid profile chart. This page has fabulous information for anyone wishing to tinker with recipes for the perfect bar of soap!
https://lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

 

[DianaMoon]

For anyone still reading this thread who originally was looking for a replacement for palm oil in a recipe, I recommend reading the Lovin’ Soap Studio’s fabulous Soap Making Oils page. Scroll down 2/3 of the page for the fatty acid profile chart. This page has fabulous information for anyone wishing to tinker with recipes for the perfect bar of soap!
https://lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

Which is where I read this,

"Because of it’s higher palmitic acid content, it actually does contribute to a harder bar of soap (compared to other liquid oils such as almond, grapeseed, sunflower, safflower)."

Which completely goes against everything you read about avocado oil being soft.

I personally am going to experiment with a straight sub between palm oil and avocado oil, probably going a little higher on some hardening oil to compensate. And adding something to harden.