Recreating aleppo soap

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I want to check up a few things, so I know I understand right.

1. Is only half the lye solution added because you want to reach "trace" faster? About how long time into boiling are you adding the other half of the lye solution?

2. Is NaOH or KOH used nowadays? It looks like traditionally it was made by ashes, which would mean KOH. Would NaOH make a too hard soap?

3. Is it really true that the soap is boiled at 200C (not F) as some sites are claiming?

4. When fresh water is added, how do you exactly do it? Do you mix in the water properly? I mean, does not the soap solve up into the water and you end up with a gel? How do you prevent soap loss when draining the water? With how much water do you rinse it? Like same amount as soap?

I have only made soap where I have had no excess water nor excess lye solution so this with extra much water is very confusing for me. I want to learn as much as possible before I order any oil.
Hello there,
The example I have given is on 500kg pot. Small kitchen pots do not take as much time.

1. The half of the lye solution added because you wouldnt want oils to saponify fast, this is 4-6 hours process. Half at start and the other after 3-4 hours. (Slow paced saponification)
2. Naoh is certainly used nowadays. I know guys that tried ash but no performance and yes it was made using ash instead of Naoh( they didnt have Naoh long time ago:) )
3. To be honest I never measure the tempetarure.
4. The reason is to use seawater is that being salty. Salty water rinse faster than fresh water. When I mentioned fresh water I meant ''newly made salty water'' (sorry). and yes it becomes like jel at first. You drain till you see the soap coming out. The amount of water is 1:5-6 depending on the oils you are using. If the oil has an unpleasant smell or you added unfiltered base oil etc. you use more salty water.


It is very confusing, I do not even make my batches. There is an second generation artisian here that I hire to make.
 
I did CP. As for the Atra website, I had a look at it but they only seem to sell the laurel oil in batches of 25 kg and the smallest essential oil is 1 kg. Even though I make a lot of soap, this is too much for me!

Thank you anyway.
Small packages are coming soon.
 
Small packages are coming soon.

How long time does the oil keep without going rancid? EU is having a ban on using Laurel Berry Oil in cosmetic products, so at this point only small quantities for hobby can be used (unless exporting the product out of EU)
 
How long time does the oil keep without going rancid? EU is having a ban on using Laurel Berry Oil in cosmetic products, so at this point only small quantities for hobby can be used (unless exporting the product out of EU)
Shelf life is 3 years. Just sent out 90kg to France and sending another 150kg to UK. I did not have any problem. I know that there are lab tests that each country requires at import export level of the business. I also export Olive Oil and it is applied to it as well. Aleppian soapmaker export Laurel Berry Soaps to every country in EU.

I would like to know and read the source on banning Laurel Berry Oil.
 
Here is my take on your questions, based on the literature search I have done. I am not personally experienced in "boiled" soap, so I'm just passing on what I've read.

1. Is only half the lye solution added because you want to reach "trace" faster? About how long time into boiling are you adding the other half of the lye solution?

Adding the lye in several batches to a hand-stirred "boiled" soap, which is how most soap was made 100+ years ago, will slow the saponification reaction. There are two reasons for this -- the soap will be easier to stir by hand and the saponification of the oils will be more complete.

If you add the lye too quickly, soap particles form quickly enough that they will make a solid mass at the top of the kettle. This soap mass is so thick and stiff that it cannot be easily mixed by hand. The water-salt-lye solution below the soap layer cannot be mixed with the the oils trapped in the soap layer, so the batch will not saponify efficiently. By adding the lye slowly, the soap mass remains more fluid so it can be stirred more easily, and you'll get better results with this type of method.

2. Is NaOH or KOH used nowadays? It looks like traditionally it was made by ashes, which would mean KOH. Would NaOH make a too hard soap?

Lye made from ashes is not necessarily entirely KOH. It depends on the vegetation -- what kind of plant and the location in which it grew. Certain plants that grow near salt water naturally have more sodium in the ash than other plants or plants grown inland.

Furthermore, the use of salt water (or seawater) in the soap making process provides an additional source of sodium. This free sodium reacts with KOH soap molecules to partially convert the KOH soap to an NaOH soap.

3. Is it really true that the soap is boiled at 200C (not F) as some sites are claiming?

That is absolutely incorrect. Boiled soap is a water-based system. Water at normal air pressure (0 bar gauge or 0 psi gauge) boils about 100 C (212 F). You'd have to have an expensive pressure vessel rated for well over 14 barG (200 psig) to raise the boiling point of a water solution to 200 C (392 F). Even a home pressure canner cannot get anywhere close to that. Bottom line -- the people who say that are confusing their Celcius with their Fahrenheit. That kind of pressure equipment ain't gonna be available with a handcrafted soap.

4. When fresh water is added, how do you exactly do it? Do you mix in the water properly? I mean, does not the soap solve up into the water and you end up with a gel? How do you prevent soap loss when draining the water? With how much water do you rinse it? Like same amount as soap?

The fresh water will indeed dissolve the soap. Dump it in and mix it up. This step is intended to reduce the amount of free lye in the soap (and also to remove the glycerin). This step has to be followed by a salt water rinse to drop the soap back out of solution. Yes, some soap is lost when you drain out the water.

The amount of salt required depends on the soap. Coconut soap will require more salt. An olive based soap will require less. How much water? How much salt? You will have to figure that out by trial and error. That is why boiled soap is as much an art as a science -- you have to have enough experience in this type of soap making to be able to "read" the soap and respond appropriately. I'd learn the technique by making a soap similar to the aleppo, but using cheaper materials.
 
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Here is my take on your questions, based on the literature search I have done. I am not personally experienced in "boiled" soap, so I'm just passing on what I've read.

1. Is only half the lye solution added because you want to reach "trace" faster? About how long time into boiling are you adding the other half of the lye solution?

Adding the lye in several batches to a hand-stirred "boiled" soap, which is how most soap was made 100+ years ago, will slow the saponification reaction. There are two reasons for this -- the soap will be easier to stir by hand and the saponification of the oils will be more complete.

If you add the lye too quickly, soap particles form quickly enough that they will make a solid mass at the top of the kettle. This soap mass is so thick and stiff that it cannot be easily mixed by hand. The water-salt-lye solution below the soap layer cannot be mixed with the the oils trapped in the soap layer, so the batch will not saponify efficiently. By adding the lye slowly, the soap mass remains more fluid so it can be stirred more easily, and you'll get better results with this type of method.

2. Is NaOH or KOH used nowadays? It looks like traditionally it was made by ashes, which would mean KOH. Would NaOH make a too hard soap?

Lye made from ashes is not necessarily entirely KOH. It depends on the vegetation -- what kind of plant and the location in which it grew. Certain plants that grow near salt water naturally have more sodium in the ash than other plants or plants grown inland.

Furthermore, the use of salt water (or seawater) in the soap making process provides an additional source of sodium. This free sodium reacts with KOH soap molecules to partially convert the KOH soap to an NaOH soap.

3. Is it really true that the soap is boiled at 200C (not F) as some sites are claiming?

That is absolutely incorrect. Boiled soap is a water-based system. Water at normal air pressure (0 bar gauge or 0 psi gauge) boils about 100 C (212 F). You'd have to have an expensive pressure vessel rated for well over 14 barG (200 psig) to raise the boiling point of a water solution to 200 C (392 F). Even a home pressure canner cannot get anywhere close to that. Bottom line -- the people who say that are confusing their Celcius with their Fahrenheith. That kind of pressure equipment ain't gonna be available with a handcrafted soap.

4. When fresh water is added, how do you exactly do it? Do you mix in the water properly? I mean, does not the soap solve up into the water and you end up with a gel? How do you prevent soap loss when draining the water? With how much water do you rinse it? Like same amount as soap?

The fresh water will indeed dissolve the soap. Dump it in and mix it up. This step is intended to reduce the amount of free lye in the soap (and also to remove the glycerin). This step has to be followed by a salt water rinse to drop the soap back out of solution. Yes, some soap is lost when you drain out the water.

The amount of salt required depends on the soap. Coconut soap will require more salt. An olive based soap will require less. How much water? How much salt? You will have to figure that out by trial and error. That is why boiled soap is as much an art as a science -- you have to have enough experience in this type of soap making to be able to "read" the soap and respond appropriately. I'd learn the technique by making a soap similar to the aleppo, but using cheaper materials.
Two thumbs way up:)
 
Thank you, you two, for very much information. I should try to find a good tutorial about boiled soap.

I have quite a lot of own made liquid Castile soap (made with KOH) ready at home. I decided to experiment with it. I added a lot of water to it, then added salt. Then I poured it into a glass jar to be able to observe what happens. After some time the soap begun to separate. What was on top floating was very soft and runny. How do you get the salt water out of the ready product? Do you filter it out? Salt is killing the lather, so the floating soap had almost no lather at all.

What salt concentration is used in Aleppo soap for washing the soap?
 
I also do not have experience with liquid soaps. Ask me anything with HP aleppo style soapmaking. I will quickly find out, If I cant answer.
 
hi

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What colour is Laurel oil supposed to be?
Mixture of green, brown and black. There are some pics and a video of its soap on the forum.

IMG_0332.jpg
 
Hi, do you have contact details for the supplier? Where in the world are they?
I could help you out with that. This oil is produced in some of Mediterranean countries. Check out sponsor display section on the forum.
 
Hello, is it possible to take the Lauris nobilis leaves and dry them and macerate in olive oil to get the bay oil and what procedure would you recommend if so ie what weight bay leaves to oil. I have attempted it in a small quantity and the soaps smell good and look pretty good although at this time still curing?
 
Check out sponsor display section on the forum...I am new to soapforum....what does this mean??
 
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