Recipe Check, Questions re: Jojoba/Meadowfoam

[leilaninoel]

Hello, all!

I figured I'd post what recipe I've been tweaking and playing with lately, and see if anyone had any suggestions or ideas for improvement.


Cocoa butter, 15%
Coconut Oil, 25%
Olive Oil, 36%
Rice Bran Oil, 10%
Castor Oil, 8%
Meadowfoam Oil, 4%
Jojoba Oil, 2%

Half my liquid I use coconut milk, or if I don't I'll add a tsp of sugar per pound of oil to increase lather. When not using coconut milk, I do a slight water discount.


Now, some of my reasoning behind the ingredients, in case it makes a difference:

The cocoa butter I have a bunch of, and supposedly makes a nice hard shelf stable bar, so I dig that.
Coconut oil for lather, castor oil for bubbles.

Rice Bran Oil - in my first few recipes I was using vegetable shortening (knock off Crisco) at about 10%. I know better now, so I've decided to try subbing Rice Bran Oil. The batches with this instead are still pretty young, so we'll see how that goes.

The meadowfoam - I read that it can extended the shelf life of other oils. I've been a bit paranoid about DOS (it happened on one of my batches - I think part of it was I didn't have AC, and the oils and soaps were being stored at about 80+ degrees). I also loooooove the feel of meadowfoam oil, and how nicely it absorbs into the skin.
Jojoba oil - I've just started working with this (got BOGO 16oz from Soap-Making-Resource), but it's supposed to extend the shelf life of other oils as well.

I understand that both meadowfoam and jojoba oil are considered more luxury, and I see a lot of posts saying don't bother using in cold process soap. I do add them after I've already reach medium-thick trace, just to hopefully slightly increase what percentage of SF is comprised of those oils.
Does it still make sense to still use a little of these oils to increase shelf life, in addition to the "Oooooh!" factor? Would decreasing the overall percentage in the recipe, like to 2% or 1%, still provide the shelf stability benefits?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Adding them at any point in cold process is pretty much-of-a-muchness. It will not make a difference to the superfat.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with TEG. Add them at the beginning as it really doesn't matter when you add them doing CP. The lye will take what it wants. Period!

I'm also a believer that adding anything less than 5% isn't worth it.

And, Rice Bran and Olive are very similar. You have a lot of liquid oils going in so it will be softer longer

 

[IrishLass]

Ditto what the good Gent and Shari said. The practice of adding certain oils at trace in the hopes of them having a better chance of becoming a major part of the untouched superfat has been disproven in experiments done Dr. Kevin Dunn's lab, which actually makes perfect sense, because when soap is at trace, only about 10% to 20% of the batter has actually been reacted with the lye, leaving a whopping 80% to 90% of very active lye. And even 24 to 36 hours after the soap has been molded, the lye is still at work reacting with the oils until saponification is complete. The lye will react with whatever fatty acids it wants to react with in spite of our best efforts to wait until trace to add an oil. It pretty much just laughs at our efforts. lol

Having said that, though, if you do HP instead of CP and add your superfatting oil after the cook when the batter is tongue-neutral, your chances are much better (although not exactly 100% guaranteed since soap is not exactly 100% static/set-in-stone once saponified).

I, too love meadowfarm seed oil. I use it in my lip balms, lotions, body butters and as a superfat in my liquid soap after the cook and dilution are complete. It's very shelf-stable, but I would not rely upon it to keep the other oils in your formula from going rancid unless you happen to know of the proper preventative usage rate. For what it's worth- I myself do not know.


IrishLass

 

[leilaninoel]

Oh, I definitely wasnt expecting a major amount - I was aware of the 10-20% sopanification and trace, and that's what I was going by. I did say "slight" I know it's not a significant difference, but I like the fact that mathematically and chemically it technically can "make a difference" even if it's completely imperceptible.

The main reason I do it is when I have essential oils, colorants, or when I have additives like citrus zest I usually mix them up with the meadowfoam before hand. So I add those at medium to thick trace.

My main thing about it though is the shelf stability, and potential benefits. I haven't had any DOS issues aside from the one batch in the middle of summer, but I am still curious if there was any research out there that does have what the thresholds are for improving shelf life. I haven't found any, so I was hoping someone might have experience testing it out.

So, didn't see anyone really address yet whether or not it's worthwhile using either jojoba or meadowfoam in cold process (regardless of affect on shelf life). I know it's preferred for lotions, body butters, etc, but does anyone else use them in cold process or even hot process any notice a difference in their bars?

 

[DeeAnna]

I use meadowfoam and jojoba in my leave-on products, and I would say ***if used as main ingredients*** they do add to the shelf life.

Added to soap at just a few percent ... hmmm, I'm really rather skeptical. If you really want shelf stability in your soap, use an antioxidant such as rosemary oleoresin (ROE) or a chelator such as sodium citrate or tetrasodium EDTA. I know these chemicals are added in tiny amounts, but they have a proven track record for soap, unlike meadowfoam and jojoba.

 

[leilaninoel]

I appreciate everyone's patience with me - I just found this lovely thread, and found the OP much more thoroughly thought out and worded, and everyone's responses on the thread have been really detailed as well. I promise I do try to research if there are repeat questions, but there is SO MUCH here on the forum it's taking me a while to read through.

And, Rice Bran and Olive are very similar. You have a lot of liquid oils going in so it will be softer longer

The goal of the rice bran was to try to replace the Crisco I was previously using. People still seem to LOVE the bars I made that did have Crisco, so I'm trying to find a suitable substitute that can add some benefits different from OO. Since it's so similar to OO, what would you suggest in place of Rice Bran Oil (aside from more olive oil)?
Alternatively, what would you suggest I use instead of Crisco, aside from Palm (palm is another thing I'm trying to keep out of my batches, another reason I stopped using Crisco).

I know Lard is what everyone swears by, but I have some vegan friends I would like to try and appease with my soap as well.

 

[shunt2011]

Unfortunately, there really isn't a replacement for lard/palm but you could try shea as it's close. It will just be a matter of playing with recipes on Soap Calc until you get similar qualities to your original recipe. I use both palm and Lard so not much help there.

You can still use some rice bran as part of your oils. I have used both even though they are very similar.

 

[Margo]

The use of Jojoba and Meadowfoam Seed Oils sound a bit extravagant to me and really unnecessary. I don't use either, and I don't have any problem with DOS. The soaps I make seem to improve with age.

Avocado oil, does cause DOS and I stopped using it ages ago. However, my soaps are hot-processed and perhaps that makes a difference.

In summary, it is your creation and if you are happy with the results, then you should go with it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Avocado CAN cause dos, as can any oil. I use it often and have never had dos.

Please stop stating your own experience as the end of the matter. While you don't get on with it, many people do. Please be careful with your wording.

 

[coffeetime]

I use avocado oil up to 15% and have not had even a little DOS in 2-year old soap. I love what it brings to the recipe, lovely mildness.

 

[IrishLass]

I've been using avocado oil in my HP shave soap for over a year now and it hasn't caused any DOS issues for me.


IrishLass

 

[leilaninoel]

I actually just tried a recipe with Avocado Oil the other day. Perhaps I should start focusing on optimizing this one instead?

5% superfat, water discount

Coconut Oil, 26%
Olive Oil, 46%
Shea Butter, 10%
Avocado Oil, 10%
Castor Oil, 6%
Meadowfoam Oil, 2%

I know the general consensus is to nix the meadowfoam, but are there other aspects of this recipe people would recommend I tweak in a specific direction? I've only just made it a couple weeks ago, so I haven't really had a chance to try it yet. I cooked it in the pot a little long, so it came out more like a psuedo-hot-process, and so it seems a bit crumbly for some reason.

Also, additional clarification on the jojoba (sorry to keep asking questions, but I really do appreciate all the feedback and information!) - since it's a wax and therefore mostly unsopanifiable, wouldn't that potentially still remain mostly in tact in cold process soap? Or is is still one of those "don't even bother" situations?

Thank you again everyone!