Rancid soap??

[Jen74]

Can you post a picture of your rancid soap? It may help us figure out what is going on.

Also, how fast does your spring soap turn rancid?

I take it from your list of ingredients that you do not add any scent, colorant or other additives. Can you confirm that?

This is the soap. It seems like it turned rancid probably about two weeks into curing is my guess. At least that is what was happening last spring and summer. I attached a picture below. I do not add any scents or additives.

 

[Jen74]

Re: could they have gone rancid because you moved them for a couple of hours, really depends more on the specific conditions than the amount of time.

When you do cure them do you use Metal racks or exposure to other possible contaminants? Even bare hands can transfer contaminants to soap during handling.

I would not cure in a kitchen, no matter how big my kitchen is because of heat fluctuations, oils from cooking, possible confusion of soap with food (my husband once said grated yellow soap looked like grated cheddar and that he was tempted to grab a taste.) Plus my kitchen has a window that I will never shade, and sunshine on curing soap is not beneficial to the soap.

And if your kitchen/living room is an open-floor plan type of setting, then I wouldn't want to cure the soap in that environment, either.

How one uses a living room is dependant on one's personal choices. Our living room and every living room in every house I have ever lived in has too many windows and too much activity for curing soap. I prefer to cure soap in an area without a lot of activity, in a dark space without access by visitors, pets (we only have a cat, but cat hairs on soap is not desirable), dust, etc.

I agree, just not sure where to cure it our bedroom has the shower we use so that probably wouldn't be ideal because of moisture. The basement probably has more moisture than the rest of the house too. I have a closet in our bedroom, but again, the shower is in the bedroom. We have a closet in our basement under the stairs, but again probably not ideal being in the basement. Not sure where to cure them.

 

[The_Phoenix]

I agree, just not sure where to cure it our bedroom has the shower we use so that probably wouldn't be ideal because of moisture. The basement probably has more moisture than the rest of the house too. I have a closet in our bedroom, but again, the shower is in the bedroom. We have a closet in our basement under the stairs, but again probably not ideal being in the basement. Not sure where to cure them.

Your bedroom closet is much more suitable as a curing location. Even if you shower once a day (or twice for the two of you--though if you shower less than that, no judgement here), that's fine. Do you usually leave your closet door closed? Looking at the photo of your soap, I can see that it's located near bright light. No need to have a fan directly on them. They will cure just fine without constant air movement.

 

[Jen74]

Your bedroom closet is much more suitable as a curing location. Even if you shower once a day (or twice for the two of you--though if you shower less than that, no judgement here), that's fine. Do you usually leave your closet door closed? Looking at the photo of your soap, I can see that it's located near bright light. No need to have a fan directly on them. They will cure just fine without constant air movement.
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Thanks. I guess I can give it a try in the bedroom closet. Maybe I Will place the small dehumidifier in there with the soaps. Should I keep the closet door shut? Also should I keep them up high or lower or does it matter?

 

[The_Phoenix]

One other thought. I'm reading between the lines here so forgive me if I misread you. I saw you mention that you "superfat" with palm oil. Did I read you correct in that you use the cold process method? If that is the case, you cannot choose which fat you use as a superfat. Cold process soap does that all on its own.

Also, do you use a soap calculator to determine your recipes? I noticed that your soap has a very chunky soft texture. That tells me that you definitely have a higher superfat %. High superfat could easily cause a soap to become rancid more quickly.

 

[The_Phoenix]

Thanks. I guess I can give it a try in the bedroom closet. Maybe I Will place the small dehumidifier in there with the soaps. Should I keep the closet door shut? Also should I keep them up high or lower or does it matter?

For a small batch of soap. the humidifier isn't completely necessary but it wouldn't hurt. I would keep the soap higher up to be sure it doesn't get dirty somehow. I did want to mention that I have several hundreds of bars curing under my stairs and there isn't a need for a dehumidifier. When it's really hot I do turn a fan on, but I live in a lower humidity climate so humidity isn't a huge issue anyway. Perhaps somehow who lives with more humidity could chime in here.

Could you share your exact recipe with us? I keeping looking at the soap photo. It's possible that the high superfat % is another red flag.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

This is the recipe I use from SoapCalc: 9.18 ounces of water, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel Oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil, 4.52 ounces of lye and 1.6 ounces of Glycerin.

That's 5% superfat (intrinsic CP). I understood you correctly that you don't add any oils on top of that?

 

[Jen74]

For a small batch of soap. the humidifier isn't completely necessary but it wouldn't hurt. I would keep the soap higher up to be sure it doesn't get dirty somehow. I did want to mention that I have several hundreds of bars curing under my stairs and there isn't a need for a dehumidifier. When it's really hot I do turn a fan on, but I live in a lower humidity climate so humidity isn't a huge issue anyway. Perhaps somehow who lives with more humidity could chime in here.

Could you share your exact recipe with us? I keeping looking at the soap photo. It's possible that the high superfat % is another red flag.

This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it. 4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water. How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?

 

[Jen74]

That's 5% superfat (intrinsic CP). I understood you correctly that you don't add any oils on top of that?

I make my soap hot process as I found it just works better for me. I cure it for 6 weeks usually. I do not add any other oils or scents as I am highly sensitive to things.

 

[The_Phoenix]

A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.

This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it. 4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water. How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?

Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.

I'm not sure what you meaning by "messing up the ratio of the recipe." When I think of "superfat" I envision "free" fat that is not saponified. The amount of fats you use stay the same no matter what superfat you plug into the calculator. You change the superfat by adjusting the lye. Using less lye will result in a higher superfat %. Play around with the superfat % in the calculator to see what that would look like.

So, now that I've looked at your recipe, and everything checks out there, it's likely the curing location. And you said previously that your palm oil and palm kernel flakes are fine and there is no hint of rancidity in their storing containers. Right?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Hrm. HP gives you more freedom to control which oils should fully saponify. If you add all the oils at once at the beginning of the HP cook, it won't be different from CP, that's why quite some people prefer to call it “lye discount” for that reason. Since in HP, there is also the option of “late” superfat, i. e. saving some of the oils to add after the cook.

(Btw, in SoapCalc you can just lower the “Super Fat” value in the top right corner. Amounts of NaOH and water will go up a bit, the oil weights will stay the same)

ETA: The_Phoenix was a second quicker…

 

[The_Phoenix]

A good experiment would be to make a batch as usual (albeit much smaller so you don't waste raw materials) and put half of the bars of soap in your closet away from bright sunlight, away from activity, and the other half in the usual curing area. If both sets go rancid, something else is amiss.

 

[amd]

This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it. 4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water. How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?

So this is your recipe

In soap calc, to change the super fat you would change this number on the calculator

If you change the superfat to 3%, this would be your new recipe.

Note that the amount of oils does not change. What changes is the amount of lye and water.
When lowering the superfat you are adding more lye (which then changes your amount of water) so that more oils are converted into soap.
When increasing the superfat you are adding less lye so that less oils are converted into soap.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Another question. I wonder why your soaps have such a whitish-opaque appearance. HP is the most stringent way of enforcing gel, so I'd expect them to look more translucent, particularly with added glycerol.
(Tbf I've never made HP soaps that high in hard oils, to compare these to).
I just want to make sure you cook long enough, and don't end up with a lot of unreacted oils and lye. Technically it shouldn't make a difference (saponification will finish within days at most), but it could prolong the time at which large amounts of partially broken down oil molecules are exposed to the environment.

 

[Jen74]

A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.

Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.

I'm not sure what you meaning by "messing up the ratio of the recipe." When I think of "superfat" I envision "free" fat that is not saponified. The amount of fats you use stay the same no matter what superfat you plug into the calculator. You change the superfat by adjusting the lye. Using less lye will result in a higher superfat %. Play around with the superfat % in the calculator to see what that would look like.

So, now that I've looked at your recipe, and everything checks out there, it's likely the curing location. And you said previously that your palm oil and palm kernel flakes are fine and there is no hint of rancidity in their storing containers. Right

 

[Jen74]

A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.

Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.

I'm not sure what you meaning by "messing up the ratio of the recipe." When I think of "superfat" I envision "free" fat that is not saponified. The amount of fats you use stay the same no matter what superfat you plug into the calculator. You change the superfat by adjusting the lye. Using less lye will result in a higher superfat %. Play around with the superfat % in the calculator to see what that would look like.

So, now that I've looked at your recipe, and everything checks out there, it's likely the curing location. And you said previously that your palm oil and palm kernel flakes are fine and there is no hint of rancidity in their storing containers. Right

 

[Jen74]

There is no rancid smell to the oils at all. The container the palm oil is in is a plastic jug( 7lbs). The palm kernel oil is in a box, the oil is more solid and in a plastic bag inside the box. The Lye is in a plastic bottle with a safety top.

 

[Jen74]

Another question. I wonder why your soaps have such a whitish-opaque appearance. HP is the most stringent way of enforcing gel, so I'd expect them to look more translucent, particularly with added glycerol.
(Tbf I've never made HP soaps that high in hard oils, to compare these to).
I just want to make sure you cook long enough, and don't end up with a lot of unreacted oils and lye. Technically it shouldn't make a difference (saponification will finish within days at most), but it could prolong the time at which large amounts of partially broken down oil molecules are exposed to the environment.

I followed the recipe for the HP which cooks for about an hour and 20 minutes sometimes a little longer.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Rancidity isn't necessarily easy to detect with the nose. If you feel comfortable to do so, you could just eat a bit of either oil. With refined oils, bitter, cheesy, tart, acrid-adstingent (like EVOO), or otherwise weird taste suggests rancidity, or at least inferior quality.

You cannot look into the manufacturing process. Oils are deodorised to sell them as industrial/cosmetic ingredients when they are of too low quality to meet food standards. They also might have been inadequately stored at the manufacturer or your supplier's warehouse.
This thread isn't about rancidity, but OP had other quality issues with palm oil, that vanished with changing the supply.

ad HP recipe: There is no hard rule how long to cook HP soap, the rule is “as long as it needs to finish saponifying”. But given you only use quick tracing oils, I guess you are well above the needed time (longer cook doesn't hurt, except when you're losing too much water to evaporation and/or the soap burns). But thanks for clarifying, so we can exclude this as well.

 

[Jen74]

Rancidity isn't necessarily easy to detect with the nose. If you feel comfortable to do so, you could just eat a bit of either oil. With refined oils, bitter, cheesy, tart, acrid-adstingent (like EVOO), or otherwise weird taste suggests rancidity, or at least inferior quality.

You cannot look into the manufacturing process. Oils are deodorised to sell them as industrial/cosmetic ingredients when they are of too low quality to meet food standards. They also might have been inadequately stored at the manufacturer or your supplier's warehouse.
This thread isn't about rancidity, but OP had other quality issues with palm oil, that vanished with changing the supply.

ad HP recipe: There is no hard rule how long to cook HP soap, the rule is “as long as it needs to finish saponifying”. But given you only use quick tracing oils, I guess you are well above the needed time (longer cook doesn't hurt, except when you're losing too much water to evaporation and/or the soap burns). But thanks for clarifying, so we can exclude this



Okay, that is a good idea about testing the oil by tasting it. I have bought my oils from this company a few times and never had an issue( crafters choice). However, today I went out and bought from another place I have used in the past( soapers choice). I am at such a loss. I think it might be the humidity or where I am curing them causing the issue. During the winter it did not matter because it was SO dry already in the house. Maybe because it is spring, it is more humid and that is causing the soap to go rancid?