Question about Trace

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I am a new soap maker, and I have a question about Trace.

I understand that Trace is the point at which the Oils and the Lye/Water chemically change to form soap, like A + B = C, but is there a difference between getting a 'light' trace versus a 'thick' trace in the end product? Does a thicker trace give you a harder bar? Or are you just spending extra time mixing to get a thicker trace? While I have tried to search this question, I keep seeing people talk about what they prefer. Is there a factual, scientifically-based answer?

Sorry if I sound a little anal - just trying to understand the process a little better. :)
 
Trace isn't the point where oils and lye become soap. It's just a visible sign that you're past the emulsification stage aka "the point of no return". :wink:

Trace doesn't have anything to do with whether you'll have a harder bar. Hardness is based upon the percentage of saturated oils in a recipe (except for olive oil which does become hard after curing). Generally, all soap despite the percentage of saturated opposed to unsaturated oils will become "hard". Hardness really just refers to the solubility when exposed to water. Well, also how easily and quickly the batch will come out of the mold. Most of my recipes have a high percentage of unsaturated oils which makes them hard to unmold if I don't use something like sodium lactate or salt to provide initial hardness. If I forget to add SL or salt, I have to leave a loaf in the mold for several days before I can get it out without it squishing or pulling apart. Yup! That soft. :oops: My recipes are very soft but I prefer soap with more conditioning for my dry skin. After curing, the bars are "hard" but would rapidly dissolve or melt if I didn't set them outside the shower on a rack so they dry between uses.

People who prefer lighter trace might do so because they want to swirl colors. I like to separate a batch just before light trace or at light trace if I'm coloring the soap. If I'm making a solid color soap, I don't worry about trace and might stir longer until I get a little heavier trace before pouring into the mold.

I don't know how much you know and I don't want to insult you by telling you something you already know. But I'll explain a little further since other people might find this helpful. Simply put, saponification is the chemical (exothermic) process where oils and lye become soap. This is a process that takes hours or days to occur depending on gelling versus not gelling or if you're using a hot process method. Hot process is when you "cook" the soap in a double boiler, crockpot or oven to force the gel phase. Once you've cooked the soap through the gel phase, the batch is saponified and you have soap! :grin: This doesn't mean the soap is as nice as it will become. Hot process needs to be cured to allow for excess water evaporation. Also, the batch is still going through some changes where it becomes milder, etc.

BTW, I love your username. :thumbup:
 
Thanks! After I wrote it, I thought it was too simplified but everyone knows I'm not big on the science and I prefer the aesthetics of soapmaking. I also thought someone else would come along and expand on it. :lol:

I didn't even discuss false trace. :oops:
 
Thanks, Hazel, for the information. You have clarified trace more for me.

I had been wondering about the effect of trace on hardness because out of the 3 batches I've done so far, the one that I did a light trace on took 3 days to harden up enough to get out of the mold. The two that I did a good trace on took less time (24-48 hours). But, the one that took longer also was a little thicker pour. Is there a correlation between the thickness of what you pour with how long it takes to harden? I would think so, but I don't have enough experience yet to answer my own questions. :)
So much to learn...

My husband came up with the username; he is creative. lol
 
I've never noticed trace affecting whether a batch firmed up more quickly. What I've noticed to affect a batch were percentage of saturated fats or butters, liquid amount and gelling/not gelling.

Were they the same recipe? If they were, did the first batch gel? It takes a lot longer for non-gelled batches to firm up. Gelled batches firm up more quickly and I can normally unmold them the next day. (Not always since a couple of my recipes are really soft.) Another factor could be the amount of liquid. Did you use a water discount for the two which firmed up more quickly?
 
Yeah, I can't image that the stage of trace you pour at would have any effect on your final results. Whether your bar is hard or soft and speed of being able to get it out of the mold, depends on how much water you use, % of hard oils, fragrance (see: soap on a stick, lol). Use of sodium lactate can change the composition of the final bar too.
 
Hi again! Thanks for answering my question!

All 3 batches were the same base recipe - 30% CO, 30% OO, 30% WM GV shortening (only thing I could find locally with some palm oil in it!) and 10% castor oil. I used soapcalc to get my lye and water amounts correct. I have not done a water discount yet.

I'm not sure yet exactly what "gelling" is, but... I think my first batch did gel. I used a bread/meatloaf-type of baking pan as a mold and lined it with plastic wrap. It was very warm in the towels for a while when I checked on it. The 2nd and 3rd batches I don't think gelled; they never felt warm after putting it in the mold (I used a plastic container as a mold for these batches).

I don't know if the difference was the mold or because the first batch I used Sweet Orange EO as a fragrance and the 2nd and 3rd batches were with a Soapies FO.

So now I am itching to do another batch (or two or three!). I just rec'd my order of some FOs from SweetCakes, and I can't wait to see how they smell in soap!

The package arrived on Friday, as indicated it would when I tracked it, but we had to go into town for a few hours to shop, and we must've had a new/substitute UPS driver - when we got home, the box was placed in a plastic bag and tied to a T-post between our driveway and our neighbors driveway. It was in the full sun, which at our elevation is extremely intense. I almost had a cow thinking my FOs would explode. Had expected the driver to put the box in its usual spot on our front porch - in the shade! Fortunately, the box didn't explode and start a wildfire or something. These FOs have a fp of 200 degrees -whew! Do you think they could've exploded?

I am toying with the idea of using some coconut milk in a batch and have read that some people add it at light trace and others use it as a water substitute and chill it first, but it can brown the soap. What I don't understand is how do you add it at trace - doesn't it add too much liquid if you add water AND coconut milk? Or do you discount the water in the water/lye mixture? I don't 'get it'.

Soap making sure is interesting. So many choices! But I can justify making more batches if I give family and friends a bunch of homemade soap, right? lol Now I will never buy store-bought soap again! Eww! :)
 
Gelling is when the soap heats up and becomes almost liquefied or has a translucent appearance similar to a gel. When it finishes saponifying, the soap will have a shinier, less opaque appearance as compared to soap which isn’t gelled. Gelling versus not gelling is personal preference. Everyone has an opinion about it.

Here are some links to pictures which show gel and partial gel. The partial gel is a good comparison to show the difference between gelled and not gelled.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f22/my-first-partial-gel-25839/

http://www.soap-making-resource.com/comfrey-soap-making.html (scroll down to section “How will the Gel-Phase Affect the Color Produced by Comfrey Powder?” There is a fantastic picture of a gelled soap below it since the batch is in a clear acrylic mold.)

http://blog.thesage.com/2009/02/25/cold-process-soap-day-three/ (Scroll to the bottom of the page to see soap going through the gel phase. Also, Andee discusses gel and trace in this article so you might find it helps to clarify things for you.)

Just for fun - picture examples of thicknesses of trace.

I don’t know what to say about your 3 batches. Since you said the one batch felt warm through the towels then I would think it was gelling. Since it did go through the gel phase, I don’t know why it would have taken several days for you to be able to remove it from the mold. The two that you didn’t think gelled may have not been able to keep enough heat because of the plastic container you used as a mold. Did you put them in towels? I’m just guessing now what might have made a difference. What temperature did you combine the oils and lye solution for mixing? If I combine at too low of a temp, I have problems with batches heating up enough for a full gel. Conversely, I let the oils and lye solution cool before blending when I don’t want to gel a batch. There are so many variables with soapmaking that it’s hard to say what could have made a difference.

Fragrances can also make a difference in how quickly soap can thicken. Some EOs and FOs can cause a batch to accelerate or even reverse trace. It’s rare to find a FO which reverses trace but I know people have mentioned it and I’ve experienced it once. I don’t remember what the FO was now but I wrote it down on the notes about the batch for future reference. (eta: Peak's Vanilla Hazelnut is what reversed the trace in my batch.) I don’t know what Soapies FO is so I don’t know how it would affect a batch.

(Off topic – Was the first mold made of metal? It would hold heat more than plastic but you don’t want to use anything made of aluminum in soapmaking. Aluminum reacts with lye and will ruin the soap. Even though you said you lined it with plastic, there is always the risk of the plastic ripping and raw soap coming into contact with the metal.)


Adding coconut milk at trace – yes, you’d discount the water for dissolving the lye. You could use twice the amount of water as compared to the amount of lye and then make up the liquid amount difference with CM. For example, 9 oz of water to dissolve 4.5 oz lye and then add 3 oz CM or whatever the amounts are for your recipe. You can actually use less water but I don’t recommend a steep water discount until you get more experienced with the process.

You can chill or freeze the CM to use it for 100% of the liquid amount. There should be minimal discoloration (if any) as long as you slowly add the lye and don’t allow the solution to get hot. I’ve used chilled 100% CM for a batch and didn’t add the lye in very slowly. I just kept stirring with one hand and sifting the lye into the container. The CM turned an orangy color but didn’t scorch. However, I can’t tell you if doing it this way would have caused discoloration since I used vanilla FO with it and it turned brown.

It’s good that you got home and rescued the FOs. :lol: I don’t think the FOs could have gotten hot enough to explode although I suppose anything’s possible. I know some FOs can’t be shipped by air because they are considered hazardous. I never asked about the reason but I suppose it’s because they could explode. Maybe someone else knows the reason.

Nothing wrong with some store bought soap. I’ll confess that I like the original Lever. I just find it too drying for my skin. I also have a BIL who can only use a specific store bought soap because of psoriasis. Different strokes for different folks. :wink:

I think there was something else I meant to mention but I've just gone brain dead. Maybe I'll remember later.

Sorry, sorry!!!

It’s okay. You didn’t scare her off. :lol:
 
Thanks! After I wrote it, I thought it was too simplified but everyone knows I'm not big on the science and I prefer the aesthetics of soapmaking. I also thought someone else would come along and expand on it. :lol:

I didn't even discuss false trace. :oops:

Shall I since I think I hit it today? LOL Only time will tell.
Welcome to soap making Pam. :)
 
Wow, Hazel! Thank you for the great tips and links. I am going through all of them now.

I think you may be right about the container. I did have the plastic container in towels in a drawer, but they cooled off quickly. I did combine the lye & oils at lower temps on those batches, as I thought that temp might be a factor for tracing. My first batch I did at 122 degrees, vs 108 for the second, 114 for the 3rd. I read that different fragrances should be added sometimes at lower temps and/or a light trace, so I'm trying to follow that advice.

Am learning so much! Back to reading...
 
You're welcome! I like to blend at approximately 120 when I want a batch to gel. Also, smaller batches tend to lose heat more quickly. I didn't think to ask the size of the batches.
 
I honestly do not find gelling versus non-gelling making a difference in unmolding. I only gel when I have a heater upper and cannot stop the gelling even in the fridge. Almost all my soap batches go in the fridge initially to cool down and stop gel. I usually unmold in 8 - 10 hrs. It will take about 12-24 hrs to un-mold if I have used full water (38% water to oil) because I am swirling.
 
I do find a difference but that's because of my recipes. I suppose I should say not everyone will have the same experience with unmolding and how long it takes to unmold. It would depend upon recipes, water discounts, gelling, not gelling, mold types*, weather conditions, gremlins, etc. :lol:


*I have to leave batches in silicone molds to sit longer so I can get the loaves out without damaging them. I can remove loaves the next day if I use a lined mold. I use the silicone molds more often just because I don't normally make larger than 2 lb batches.
 
Hazel is right that you would reduce the amount of water used. Coconut milk + any water = the total water-phase liquid needed.

Also, some coconut milk products can add a lot of fat to the recipe, so you would not want to ignore that. Include the fat from the coconut milk as a part of the oils, so you will use the right amount of lye. The nutrition info is going to give you the fat information.

An example -- let's say I want to use 100 g of coconut milk in my soap. From the nutrition information, I learn that my 100 grams of coconut milk includes 22 grams of fat. I would add the 22 grams to the oils in my recipe. Then 100 - 22 = 78 grams of liquid would be left over. I would include that 78 grams as part of my water-phase.
 
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