Question about Hot Process, EO & carrier oil?

[MysPhoenix]

Hi! I'm quite new to soap making and I have a recipe for a hot process soap I want to try. It is a cold process soap recipe, however, she says that this recipe works as Hot Process as well.

For cold process, she adds her colorant (it's a botannical infusion) and EO at the same time with all the other oils. She says that the saponification process drastically changes the botannical infusion shade to the desired color. Because of this it is my plan to add the colorant before saponification as she does, and yes, the infusion oil is counted in the total weight of the oils.

I am assuming she makes no mention of a carrier oil with her EO b/c it is being added to oils, but I read with hot process that EOs and fragrances should be added AFTER the saponification process has happened. I always put EOs in a carrier (typically sweet almond oil, fractionated coconut oil, or jojoba oil). If I emulsify the EO/carrier oil blend at the same time that I plan on adding yogurt for fluidity, will it affect how it "sets" up because I'm adding an oil after saponification? Also, because this oil is NOT used in saponification does it still count towards the total oil weight?

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, I'm just really trying to err on the side of caution and I'm new lol.

 

[AliOop]

Hi there, and welcome to soaping. When you get a chance, head over to the Introduction Forum and tell us a bit about yourself.

I started out with HP for many years before branching out into CP. I always added my EOs after the cook, but rarely put them in a carrier oil. As long as you mix it in thoroughly, it should not be an issue.

EOs alone are not saponified so you don't need to count them towards your oil weight. If you mix them with a carrier oil, or your superfat oil, that additional oil IS counted towards your total oil weight. The easiest way to account for that, IMO, is to set aside the amount oil needed for the superfat, and mix your EO with that. Here is an example:

You are making a 1000g batch, with 3% SF. You would measure 30g of one of your liquid oils, and mix the EO with that. Hold it aside until after the cook, and mix it in then with your yogurt. It will make the batter more fluid, which is normally what you want in HP anyway. Just be sure to whisk it in very, very well.

 

[MysPhoenix]

Hi there, and welcome to soaping. When you get a chance, head over to the Introduction Forum and tell us a bit about yourself.

I started out with HP for many years before branching out into CP. I always added my EOs after the cook, but rarely put them in a carrier oil. As long as you mix it in thoroughly, it should not be an issue.

EOs alone are not saponified so you don't need to count them towards your oil weight. If you mix them with a carrier oil, or your superfat oil, that additional oil IS counted towards your total oil weight. The easiest way to account for that, IMO, is to set aside the amount oil needed for the superfat, and mix your EO with that. Here is an example:

You are making a 1000g batch, with 3% SF. You would measure 30g of one of your liquid oils, and mix the EO with that. Hold it aside until after the cook, and mix it in then with your yogurt. It will make the batter more fluid, which is normally what you want in HP anyway. Just be sure to whisk it in very, very well.

Thank you so much! I was getting really hung up today on the superfat standards for hot process when it comes when to add and whether or not EOs officially need a carrier oil in soaps and if I could use the superfat oil for the carrier oil...I found a similar question to what I asking that was posted a few years ago but it honestly caused more confusion than clarification.

I will go introduce myself here in a few minutes

 

[AliOop]

You really can add the SF and the EOs whenever you want. Some people believe, and there is some evidence to support, the possibility that adding the SF after the cook allows you to choose which fat ends up unsaponified. In other words, you would add a luxury oil after the cook to ensure that this luxury oil remains unsaponified and therefore retains its beneficial properties for the skin. You can certainly choose to do that, or just use enough of your melted oils to account for equal to or less than the amount of the SF.

Other folks don't worry about that at all, and simply add the EO on its own after the cook. Or they mix it with the yogurt, coconut cream, or other post-cook additives. I'd encourage you to try it a few different ways to see what works best for you.

 

[MysPhoenix]

You really can add the SF and the EOs whenever you want. Some people believe, and there is some evidence to support, the possibility that adding the SF after the cook allows you to choose which fat ends up unsaponified. In other words, you would add a luxury oil after the cook to ensure that this luxury oil remains unsaponified and therefore retains its beneficial properties for the skin. You can certainly choose to do that, or just use enough of your melted oils to account for equal to or less than the amount of the SF.

Other folks don't worry about that at all, and simply add the EO on its own after the cook. Or they mix it with the yogurt, coconut cream, or other post-cook additives. I'd encourage you to try it a few different ways to see what works best for you.

Thank you for the response! I am definitely going to experiment. The main appeal to adding the SF after cook for me, along with yogurt, is all the fluidity for the pour. It seems to make a big difference in the videos I have been watching. The idea of that oil retaining more of it properties (in theory) is also super appealing!

 

[Kcryss]

The idea of that oil retaining more of it properties (in theory) is also super appealing!

Like @AliOop I started with HP and so far have only done 1 batch of CP.
I do HP because I believe 100% that the SF added after cook does not saponify. I zap test before adding SF, so I know the lye is no longer present when added. So far I have seen zero evidence to disprove this belief.

I do wait a bit before adding milks and EO's. Milks after temp has dropped to below 170, then I add the EO's once that is mixed well. I add EO's last to prevent as much evaporation as possible.

Happy HP soaping

 

[MysPhoenix]

Like @AliOop I started with HP and so far have only done 1 batch of CP.
I do HP because I believe 100% that the SF added after cook does not saponify. I zap test before adding SF, so I know the lye is no longer present when added. So far I have seen zero evidence to disprove this belief.

I do wait a bit before adding milks and EO's. Milks after temp has dropped to below 170, then I add the EO's once that is mixed well. I add EO's last to prevent as much evaporation as possible.

Happy HP soaping

Thank you!

I read that waiting to add milk until after the temp drops a bit helps to prevent scorching as well - true?

I am glad to hear that waiting to add the EO helps to prevent evaporation!

 

[Kcryss]

I read that waiting to add milk until after the temp drops a bit helps to prevent scorching as well - true?

Yes, if the batter is too hot when you add the milk, your soap will turn brown. Sadly, I've learned that lesson the hard way. lol

 

[true blue]

I agree w/ Kcryss ... I do HP as well. Always add my EOs at the end WITH the superfat. I do OHP ... once it's completely saponified (looks like vaseline) then I stir in my yogurt - stir well, turn oven off, put it back in for 5 min. (Warm your yogurt first - learned that one the hard way. lol) If I'm using milk, I'll mix it with the yogurt and add it then. Personally never had a problem with it turning the soap brown AFTER the soap has 'cooked', even when it's still 'hot'. (I don't check temps - did a couple times last year out of curiosity - the soap was registering about 190-200 with my oven at it's lowest setting of 170. So the chemical reaction seems to makes the soap get hotter than the actual oven temp.)

Note about your infusion though ... I've tried lots of natural colorings, and when someone does CP and says a natural coloring will do xyz, that particular aspect doesn't always carry through with HP. Many who do CP don't let their soap go through 'gel stage' ... do you know if this person does? Gel stage is kind of like the HP cook - it can change colors drastically! Alkanet is actually my Achilles heel ... in all my years, I STILL can't seem to get it to behave properly! So frustrating! (It usually ends up going gray on me.)

 

[Kcryss]

Personally never had a problem with it turning the soap brown AFTER the soap has 'cooked', even when it's still 'hot'.

Hmm ... you may have a point there. I might have to try this again. Thinking back, it was one of my first batches that turned brown after adding the milk.

 

[MysPhoenix]

I agree w/ Kcryss ... I do HP as well. Always add my EOs at the end WITH the superfat. I do OHP ... once it's completely saponified (looks like vaseline) then I stir in my yogurt - stir well, turn oven off, put it back in for 5 min. (Warm your yogurt first - learned that one the hard way. lol) If I'm using milk, I'll mix it with the yogurt and add it then. Personally never had a problem with it turning the soap brown AFTER the soap has 'cooked', even when it's still 'hot'. (I don't check temps - did a couple times last year out of curiosity - the soap was registering about 190-200 with my oven at it's lowest setting of 170. So the chemical reaction seems to makes the soap get hotter than the actual oven temp.)

Note about your infusion though ... I've tried lots of natural colorings, and when someone does CP and says a natural coloring will do xyz, that particular aspect doesn't always carry through with HP. Many who do CP don't let their soap go through 'gel stage' ... do you know if this person does? Gel stage is kind of like the HP cook - it can change colors drastically! Alkanet is actually my Achilles heel ... in all my years, I STILL can't seem to get it to behave properly! So frustrating! (It usually ends up going gray on me.)

Thank you for the tips! The way the recipe is written it implies that the color change to the deep purple hue from the alkanet only happens if it is added before saponification. Here is a quote:

"I added my alkanet infusion to my oils, pouring off the oil and a little of the alkanet root powder. I wanted to use some of the alkanet root powder (it makes the soap scrubby and adds little flecks of deep purple) so I did not strain my infusion....

...The best part of using an alkanet infusion in soapmaking is the beautiful color change due to the pH of the lye solution. When you add your lye solution, the infused alkanet transform from a lovely shade of deep red to a dark violet."

To answer your question, there is no indication in the recipe (link below if anyone would like to look) as to whether or not she lets it go through gel phase, so I emailed her & asked.

Is there a safety concern in adding the alkanet infusion at the beginning with HP soap, or are the concerns more on the aesthetic side? I was thinking about making this an experiment and making this recipe twice - adding it before in one batch and adding it after as part of the SF in the other to see how each comes out and withstands curing/aging/time, but not if there is a safety concern involved in adding it beforehand "just to see".

Recipe link:

https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/tutorial-lavender-soap-recipe

 

[MysPhoenix]

I agree w/ Kcryss ... I do HP as well. Always add my EOs at the end WITH the superfat. I do OHP ... once it's completely saponified (looks like vaseline) then I stir in my yogurt - stir well, turn oven off, put it back in for 5 min. (Warm your yogurt first - learned that one the hard way. lol) If I'm using milk, I'll mix it with the yogurt and add it then. Personally never had a problem with it turning the soap brown AFTER the soap has 'cooked', even when it's still 'hot'. (I don't check temps - did a couple times last year out of curiosity - the soap was registering about 190-200 with my oven at it's lowest setting of 170. So the chemical reaction seems to makes the soap get hotter than the actual oven temp.)

Note about your infusion though ... I've tried lots of natural colorings, and when someone does CP and says a natural coloring will do xyz, that particular aspect doesn't always carry through with HP. Many who do CP don't let their soap go through 'gel stage' ... do you know if this person does? Gel stage is kind of like the HP cook - it can change colors drastically! Alkanet is actually my Achilles heel ... in all my years, I STILL can't seem to get it to behave properly! So frustrating! (It usually ends up going gray on me.)

She just emailed me back and said that she did allow the CP soap to go through gel phase on that recipe.