Properties of Soap for MEN?

[Garden Gives Me Joy]

What properties are specific to "soap for men" comparable with Dove's 'Men+Care' (syndet bar) as an example?

The Amazon description characterizes that bar as being

• 'deep cleansing'
• rinses off easily without a greasy residue
• "With 1/4 moisturizing cream"

A consumer review gushed about how, because of the bar, he no longer needs to buy shaving products. Am I correct in assuming this could be achieved through the right 'creaminess' properties?

What are the key assumptions about what makes men's skin somehow unique to the extent that an entirely different brand is created for them? Is it that men are expected to have slightly more oily skin? ... So lower cleansing (in the middle to lower end of the recommended range will be suitable for women then?

If my following assumptions about the required soap property scores are off, please enlighten me.

• Cleansing: 20 - 22% (the max within the recommended range)
• Conditioning: Rely more on non-oily additives with good slip, like clays and or oats. On that basis, 45 - 55%, ie on the lower half of the recommended range, is acceptable.
• Creamy: At least within the middle (32%) of the recommended range of 16-48% ... or use starch and or extra clay to add creaminess?
• NaOH discount &/ Superfat. 0 - 5%

Thanks!

 

[TheGecko]

It’s 95%+ marketing you know.

A “cleansing” value of 20 will NOT get you any ‘cleaner’ than a value of 5; it will however strip all the natural oils off your skin and guess what? No ‘greasy residue’. Which is great for dishes and pots and pans, but not for hair, not for skin. A good quality bar of soap is not ‘greasy’, that’s the natural glycerin that hasn’t been removed from commercial soaps because it’s valuable. It’s a humectant that helps your skin retain moisture. It’s also an emollient and helps to keep your skin soft. But again, commercials removed most of the glycerin so folks are used to it. But one you get through that first bar of a quality artisan soap, you don’t even notice it. But you WILL notice going back to a commercial bar.

 

[KiwiMoose]

My biggest complaint from the menfolk in my life is that the soap does not rinse off clean - so there-by confirming the need for:

• rinses off easily without a greasy residue

We all know that the 1/4 moisturising cream is *word edited out by admin* so I don't know how you would emulate that other than providing the slip that you mention. Maybe higher stearic/ linoleic/ricolenic?

I propose lots of CO - possibly 30%, and i think you're onto a winner with the low to no superfat.

 

[Megan]

I would say that it's more than 95% marketing. Men's skin isn't that different than women's (they do make more oil), but everyone has their own preferences with soap.
Looking at the ingredients of the regular dove beauty bar and the men's care bar...the list is basically identical.

I personally can't use dove...makes me itchy...not as "gentle" as they say I guess.

If I was wanting to replicate any bar, I would first get a sample to see what kind of properties the lather has and go from there. You won't be able to replicate exactly because you'll be comparing syndets to soap...but you can get an approximation of whether the lather should be more creamy or more bubbly. Add in slip ingredients to make it good for shaving, silk, maybe clay (although I think I've heard clay dulls the razor). I would add colloidal oatmeal for mildness.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I think the Basic Trinity of Oils recipe would be a good starting point. Check out the PDF file on that post.

I'm currently using a rebatched bar of that soap that I made for my DIL's father. I added too much Bayberry EO in the first batch and it separated BIG time. I'm now using it up. It is one of the most bubby soaps I have ever used. I LUV it!

For the moisturizing cream aspect, I would soap at 0% SF and add Noxema Original Cleansing Cream @ 6% to the warmed oils before adding the lye solution along with 1 tablespoon PPO of White Kaolin Clay (for a white bar) or Aztec (Bentonite) Clay for good slip, (but drab green bar) plus fragrance of choice.

I use Noxema at that rate in my shaving soap. Good stuff! Both the Noxema and the Aztec Clay can be found locally at Target, Walmart, CVS, almost any drugstore and, of course, online.

GOOD LUCK & HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[TheGecko]

My biggest complaint from the menfolk in my life is that the soap does not rinse off clean - so there-by confirming the need for

I have never had a man complain about that, though I do have a male customer who prefers my GMS to my Regular Soap. It's a slightly different recipe because it contains no Cocoa Butter...I replaced that 10% with 6% more Olive Oil, 1% more Palm and Coconut Oil and 2% more Shea Butter. I do explain that artisan soap is going to feel a little funny at first, like you maybe still have soap on your hands, but that that is because glycerin isn't removed blah blah blah.

However, if a customer found the bar to be too "moisturizing" (not that I would make such a claim about my soap), I'd probably introduce them to my original recipe that had higher amounts of Coconut Oil and no Cocoa or Shea Butter.

Looking at the ingredients of the regular dove beauty bar and the men's care bar...the list is basically identical.

Yes and no. While they share many of the same ingredients, the original Beauty Bar isn't soap at all...there are no saponified oils: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Oleate, Water (Eau), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Laurate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Kaolin or (ou) Titanium Dioxide.

Men+Care does: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Sodium Tallowate or Sodium Palmitate, Sodium Stearate, Water (Aqua), Sodium Isethionate, Lauric Acid, Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Sodium Cocoate or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance (Parfum), Dipropylene Glycol, Sodium Chloride, Propylene Glycol, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Green 5 (CI 61570), Orange 4 (CI 15510), Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891).

Of course, NEITHER contains "1/4 Moisturizing Cream".

 

[Megan]

Yes and no. While they share many of the same ingredients, the original Beauty Bar isn't soap at all...there are no saponified oils: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Oleate, Water (Eau), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Laurate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Kaolin or (ou) Titanium Dioxide.

Men+Care does: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Sodium Tallowate or Sodium Palmitate, Sodium Stearate, Water (Aqua), Sodium Isethionate, Lauric Acid, Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Sodium Cocoate or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance (Parfum), Dipropylene Glycol, Sodium Chloride, Propylene Glycol, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Green 5 (CI 61570), Orange 4 (CI 15510), Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891).

As I highlighted above, the beauty bar has sodium oleate, sodium stearate, and sodium laurate. So there are saponified fatty acids.
I actually am finding ingredient list for the original beauty bar that list sodium tallowate and sodium palmitate, so I'm not sure if the formula has been changed or they have different processes or why now they list fatty acids rather than fats...as I realize they do list only the saponified fatty acids on their website now

 

[cmzaha]

My largest customer base was men, like Gecko mentioned they liked the fact my soaps rinsed off clean. I did not change my formula for men versus women soaps. All my soaps had cleansing values that ran in the range of 12-15 except my facial bar which was 10. All were made with EDTA/Sodium Gluconate combination as the chelator.

 

[TheGecko]

As I highlighted above, the beauty bar has sodium oleate, sodium stearate, and sodium laurate. So there are saponified fatty acids. I actually am finding ingredient list for the original beauty bar that list sodium tallowate and sodium palmitate, so I'm not sure if the formula has been changed or they have different processes or why now they list fatty acids rather than fats...as I realize they do list only the saponified fatty acids on their website now

I stand by what I said which was "original Beauty Bar isn't soap at all...there are no saponified oils". It's why it is called a "Beauty Bar" as opposed to soap, because soap comes from "“alkali salts of fatty acids,” that is, the material you get when you combine fats or oils with an alkali, such as lye" (FDA). Which bring me to "saponified fatty acids"...no such thing. Let me explain (I am not a sciency person and don't have a science degree so I am going to be fairly basic).

Fatty acids come from animal and vegetable fats and oils. When these fats and oils are combined with an alkali like Sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Potassium in a process known as saponification, the fats and oils are broken down into fatty acids and glycerin and harden into 'soap'. These saponified oils and fats are then known as Sodium Cocoate or Sodium Palmitate or Sodium Tallowate based on the oil or fat used.

What you are calling "saponified fatty acids"...sodium oleate, sodium stearate, and sodium laurate do not come from the saponification process. While it could be possible to take a bar of soap and through some chemical process break it down into its various fatty acids and then through another chemical process create the sodium salts of those fatty acids, there is a much easier and more cost effective way...a hydrolizer; it's what commercial soap companies use. How it works is that molten fat/oil is pumped into a vertical stainless steel tank, then 266F/130C water is added, along with pressure and it splits the oil/fat into its two components...fatty acids and glycerin. You could then take that liquid FAs, put in another tank with other FAs and Sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Potassium and make soap, or you could take them and create chemical compounds.

Regarding the use of Sodium Tallowate and Sodium Palmitate in the original Dove...a search of the Webs shows different ingredients lists; the ones I posted came directly from Dove's website. Some I have found and highlighted the differences:

{website] Ingredients: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Oleate, Water (Eau), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Laurate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Kaolin or (ou) Titanium Dioxide.

Ingredients: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Tallowate or Sodium Palmitate, Water (Aqua), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocoamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Cocoate or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891).

Ingredients: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Tallowate or Sodium Pamitate, Water (aqua), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidoproply Betaine, Sodium Cocoate or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance (parfum), Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891).

Dove has been around since 1957...it would be interesting to see what the ingredients were when it came out then and every decade since then.

 

[TheGecko]

My largest customer base was men, like Gecko mentioned they liked the fact my soaps rinsed off clean. I did not change my formula for men versus women soaps. All my soaps had cleansing values that ran in the range of 12-15 except my facial bar which was 10. All were made with EDTA/Sodium Gluconate combination as the chelator.

I thought about it...having a soap for men, soap for women, soap for kids, soap for babies, but I was cautioned when I first started making soap about customizing or have formulations for specific groups unless of course, that is your target market...think Dr Squatch. So I developed a recipe for the majority of folks, something that could be used by young and old alike. Now I do make a Goat Milk Soap, it's the reason I got into soap making in the first place and it is a popular soap, but again, it is a soap that can be used for the majority of folks. I also make a Mechanic's Soap, it's just my Regular Recipe with an abrasive added, but like my other soaps, it can be used by the majority of folks.

I do make one 'custom' soap...it's for one of gals from my crafting group...she's allergic to butters. I let her pick out the scent and then I make up a loaf for her.

 

[Megan]

You could then take that liquid FAs, put in another tank with other FAs and Sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Potassium and make soap, or you could take them and create chemical compounds.

I'm still failing to understand how this isn't saponified fatty acids... or how that verbiage is flawed

(from sciencedirect.com, the first google result that popped up) Saponification- Saponification is the formation of a metallic salt of a fatty acid; such a salt is called a soap. The reaction involves treatment of free fatty acids and/or glycerides with a base and may be considered a special case of hydrolysis when a glyceride is reacted with a base.

 

[TheGecko]

I'm still failing to understand how this isn't saponified fatty acids... or how that verbiage is flawed

Because Sodium Oleate, Sodium Stearate, and Sodium Laurate weren't saponified. Saponification is a singular chemical process that turns a mixture fats/oils and liquid lye into soap...that's it, that's all you get...soap. If I mix Olive Oil with liquid lye...I do NOT get Palmitic Acid, I do NOT get Stearic Acid or Oleic or Linoleic or Linolenic Acids...I get soap.

So how does one make/create Sodium Oleate, Sodium Stearate, and Sodium Laurate? It starts molten fat/oil like say Olive Oil that is pumped into a vertical stainless steel tank, then 266F/130C water is added, along with pressure and it splits the oil/fat into its two components...fatty acids and glycerin through a chemical reaction called hydrolysis. The fatty acids are then fractionated via distillation or crystallization. They are then pressed to separate the liquid unsaturated FAs from the solid saturated FAs and whatever other do-wah-ditty they do and you can purchase tubs of Stearic Acid and Lauric Acid. To get Sodium Stearate, you have to break down Stearic Acid through additional chemical processes/treatments.

 

[Megan]

Anyway they were saponified, that’s the Sodium salt of a fatty acid part…you can read the end of the definition I gave where it discusses hydrolysis of the oils first….but sodium stearate is just saponified stearic acid, in fact it’s in your soap too! You just can’t list it as such because you don’t know the concentration…no use arguing anymore we are far off the original topic and you’re not right sorry.

 

[TheGecko]

Anyway they were saponified, that’s the Sodium salt of a fatty acid part…you can read the end of the definition I gave where it discusses hydrolysis of the oils first….but sodium stearate is just saponified stearic acid, in fact it’s in your soap too! You just can’t list it as such because you don’t know the concentration…no use arguing anymore we are far off the original topic and you’re not right sorry.

No it's not. But that's ok. You have a great day.

 

[AliOop]

According to Dove's own website, their beauty bar is not soap.