properties database & formulating milk soap

[user 59485]

I've realized that I'm going to have to formulate my own recipes, since I have not been to find any allergen free ones (aside from Castile). I've read 6 or 7 books, watched a bunch of YouTube videos and searched a lot of websites over the past month. I've been able to find bits and pieces of what I'm looking for, but not exactly what would make things much easier. As I've been typing this, I've been searching the forum, both via search and a search engine (which seem to give different results).

I'd like to learn more about the fatty acid profiles, SAP value, shelf life, amounts to add to soap, any other relevant info about how each oil/butter behaves in cold process soap. I've seen this for more common oils, but not for everything in SoapCalc. Based on my previous experience formulating face cream, I know I'm probably going to need to turn to some less common oils/butters. At this point in my research, I suspect that I'm going to need to build my own database. I am hoping that someone out there knows something I don't and what I'm looking for already exists. Is there a website out there that will provide typical fatty acid profiles, SAP value, shelf life, amounts to add to soap, anything else that's necessary to know about components for cold process soap making for every single oil/butter in SoapCalc (and perhaps for ones not in SoapCalc)? This is similar to what I am looking for, but it doesn't have all of the possible oils/butters.

Along these lines, I wish SoapCalc gave a definition for what exactly they mean by "Milk fat, any bovine?" Butterfat from cow milk? Cow milk itself? When formulating milk soap, do I simply replace the water with goat milk OR do I replace the water with goat milk and calculate how much butterfat is in the milk and add that under "milk fat, any bovine"?

 

[Prysm]

Have you taken a look at https://www.soapmakingfriend.com/soap-making-recipe-builder-lye-calculator? It has a lot of features and make have a lot or all of that information.

 

[AliOop]

I'm all for learning about FAs, oil properties, etc. And I do love the soap calculator referred to in Prysm's post; it's the only one I use! It has so much more information, and so many more cool features than any other soap calculator out there.

However, there is no soap calculator or program or list that will tell you whether you will actually like the soap that is made. The calc numbers and known qualities just don't tell the whole story - only rough approximations. Plus, we are all so different in what we want or need in a soap. That makes for some fun experiments! If you are just learning, small batches (450g or 1lb) will be your best bet to avoid wasting lots of materials and ending up with too much soap. Well, you may still end up with too much soap, but not as much as if you make 3lb batches every time!

If you can share a list of the ingredients that you cannot (or choose not) to use, and what properties you prefer in a soap, we can probably help you put together a recipe or two for testing. Once you've made and tested some recipes, you'll get a much better feel for what appeals to you in a soap, what feels good (or not) to your skin, etc. Many of us started soaping because of allergies and sensitivities, so you have definitely found your tribe here!

Regarding milk in soap, you can replace some or all of the recipe's liquid with your milk of choice. You don't need to add the milk or the fat in the milk to the soap calculator.

However, some people do like figure out how much extra fat the milk will add to the recipe, and they will lower the SF number in the calculator accordingly to reach their preferred SF target.

HTH, and look forward to hearing more so we can help you on your soapy journey!

 

[KiwiMoose]

Try these links for more info:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.asp#fats

 

[user 59485]

Part of my confusion stems from the fact that in the books & websites I've read thus far, I've seen some people mention that only for example "use 5-10% of ____ oil". I thought that means that there are usage rates for each oil/butter in CP soap due to the fatty acids in the soap, shelf life, any other factors. It sounds more like its a lot simpler, and I just need to figure out how I want the soap the behave and feel. Then figure out what fatty acid profile does what I'd like. Am I close or not? Are there usage rates for oils/butters or just for additives & colorants?

The soap calculator is close. I wish it included shelf life & usage rate too.

Allergies are to anything & everything in the coconut/palm family. I don't know if there are any oils that come from any palm trees that are similar to date palms, because that would be fine. I just can't be near anything that is or looks like coconut. So no coconut oil, palm oil, babassu, etc. No soy or castor. No animal fats. Also nothing where coconut is used as a carrier, like Monoi de Tahiti or some avocado butters. 100% pure avocado butter is fine, though I'm not sure if the avocado butter in soapcalc is the avocado/coconut type or the 100% pure avocado butter type.

I'm trying to formulate soaps we can use around here for general use. A soap for normal hand washing and another soap for heavy duty degreasing hand washing (ie cleaning hands after working on vehicles). The general use soap needs to be gentle enough to not make my hands crack and bleed but cleansing enough to deal with lots of dirt. The heavier soap needs to be able to get engine grease off, hopefully without being too rough on skin. I have a french milled castille soap I use, but it doesn't lather as well as I'd like.

Thanks for that website, @KiwiMoose . I hadn't come across Classic Bells before.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thanks for that website, @KiwiMoose . I hadn't come across Classic Bells before.

That's @DeeAnna 's website. She's one of our SMF members.

 

[AliOop]

I thought that means that there are usage rates for each oil/butter in CP soap due to the fatty acids in the soap, shelf life, any other factors. It sounds more like its a lot simpler, and I just need to figure out how I want the soap the behave and feel. Then figure out what fatty acid profile does what I'd like. Am I close or not?

Yes, you are close. It's true that most soapmakers won't use certain oils over certain percentages, but that's not because it's unsafe - it just doesn't make the best soap. For instance, in bar soap, most folks won't use more than 10% castor oil, and many don't go over 5%. Otherwise, the soap is soft and sticky. Many of us also use a low percentage of coconut oil, palm kernel oil, and babassu oil, because all of those are very cleansing (stripping the skin of natural oils).

Speaking of cleansing, that's one number in the soap calculator that I find very misleading. While the soap calculator lists 12% cleansing as the low end of the desired range, I rarely go over 12% max, or the soap is way too drying for my skin. Unfortunately, the cleansing oils (coconut, pko, babassu) are also the most bubbly ones. Since you can't use any of those anyway, you will have to make your soap more bubbly in other ways.

The easiest way to do that is to add some form of sugar, whether that is white table sugar, honey, molasses, etc. My personal favorite is sorbitol, which is dissolved in some of my batch liquid. I also love aloe vera juice as a substitute for distilled water. However, although soap made with sugar will lather more easily, it probably won't be great at stripping grease unless you use some form of coconut, PKO, babassu, or tallow. You could also add some borax; search this forum for Earlene's Blacksmith Soap. Her base recipe won't work for you, but her method for adding borax and pumice is fantastic.

Ok, so let's talk about your general use recipe. Consider a mix of one or more soft oils (olive, avocado, rice bran, sweet almond, HO sunflower/safflower), plus some butters, such shea butter and cocoa butter. Definitely add some form of sugar or use dual lye to help it lather more easily.

I recommend putting your selected oils into the soap calculator and playing around a bit. Remember, it's ok that the cleansing number is very low. Most folks with sensitive skin prefer that, actually. Also watch to make sure that the combined linoleic/linolenic number is 15 or under, or your soap will be more easily prone to rancidity.

After you come up with something that looks good to you, make a small batch (450g, or 1lb) and see what you think.

 

[user 59485]

Yes, you are close. It's true that most soapmakers won't use certain oils over certain percentages, but that's not because it's unsafe - it just doesn't make the best soap. For instance, in bar soap, most folks won't use more than 10% castor oil, and many don't go over 5%. Otherwise, the soap is soft and sticky. Many of us also use a low percentage of coconut oil, palm kernel oil, and babassu oil, because all of those are very cleansing (stripping the skin of natural oils).

Speaking of cleansing, that's one number in the soap calculator that I find very misleading. While the soap calculator lists 12% cleansing as the low end of the desired range, I rarely go over 12% max, or the soap is way too drying for my skin. Unfortunately, the cleansing oils (coconut, pko, babassu) are also the most bubbly ones. Since you can't use any of those anyway, you will have to make your soap more bubbly in other ways.

The easiest way to do that is to add some form of sugar, whether that is white table sugar, honey, molasses, etc. My personal favorite is sorbitol, which is dissolved in some of my batch liquid. I also love aloe vera juice as a substitute for distilled water. However, although soap made with sugar will lather more easily, it probably won't be great at stripping grease unless you use some form of coconut, PKO, babassu, or tallow. You could also add some borax; search this forum for Earlene's Blacksmith Soap. Her base recipe won't work for you, but her method for adding borax and pumice is fantastic.

Ok, so let's talk about your general use recipe. Consider a mix of one or more soft oils (olive, avocado, rice bran, sweet almond, HO sunflower/safflower), plus some butters, such shea butter and cocoa butter. Definitely add some form of sugar or use dual lye to help it lather more easily.

I recommend putting your selected oils into the soap calculator and playing around a bit. Remember, it's ok that the cleansing number is very low. Most folks with sensitive skin prefer that, actually. Also watch to make sure that the combined linoleic/linolenic number is 15 or under, or your soap will be more easily prone to rancidity.

After you come up with something that looks good to you, make a small batch (450g, or 1lb) and see what you think.

So basically I just guess and pray about how much of each oil and/or butter to use? The reason why I am looking for much more detailed information about the usage rate of each oil and/or butter is because I am concerned about performance. I'd rather avoid excessive trial and error.


I just spent 5 days reviewing the components from 10 different suppliers hoping that they'd have information about usage rates, with mixed results. Some give usage rate but not for everything. Mindnumbingly frustrating, especially since the only answer seems to be be "guess randomly" which I hate doing but I have no choice. If I even decide to keep making soap.

 

[KiwiMoose]

The Lovin' Soap link you posted is pretty cool and it gives you information you need, but not for all possible fats - right?
So from there you really have no choice but to do your own experiments. There are no standard usage rates for oils - it comes down to personal preference and the properties you want in your soap.
I'm assuming you undertand what each fatty acid brings to soap? E.g - palmitic/stearic combined will help longevity, Lauric gives big bubbles ( but is also very stripping) etc? The soap calculators will give you an idea of the 'ideal' measures of each by showing a little bar graph with 'ideal' ranges. This varies for each person though, but it gives a general idea.

 

[AliOop]

So basically I just guess and pray about how much of each oil and/or butter to use? The reason why I am looking for much more detailed information about the usage rate of each oil and/or butter is because I am concerned about performance. I'd rather avoid excessive trial and error.

I'm not sure where/how you are missing what we are saying. It's not a guess or a prayer; people just like different things in their soap. I make a high olive oil soap for my good friend, but most of my family prefers high lard. What you have to do is make a few small batches of some different recipes and see what you like. No one else can do that work for you because we don't know what you will like.

Do some reading here on SMF to learn some general parameters to get you started. For instance:

1. Most people don't like high CO soaps because they are too drying. Start at 20% and see what you think.

2. Castor oil over 7-8% can make your bar sticky. Try starting at 5%.

3. A combined linolenic + linoleic number of 15 or higher can make your bars subject to rancidity.

4. Expensive oils don't tend to make better soap.

5. Grocery store oils (olive oil, lard, palm, coconut oil) make very nice soap when combined together.

Try a very basic 1lb recipe with 50% lard, 25% olive oil, 20% coconut oil, and 5% castor oil, with a 5% SF and 33% lye concentration. Start testing it around 2 weeks into the cure, and see what you think around weeks 4-6.

Make another 1lb batch that is 50% olive oil, 30% palm, and 20% coconut oil. Test it and see what you think.

Once you have a few basics down, then you can branch into tweaking your FA numbers. But until you make a few basic soaps, you just won't know what works for you, and what doesn't.