Preservatives

[LoryLu]

Hi Group!

I was asked by a company that I currently make cp soap for if I could also make them liquid soap for their products. I’m like...sure!! It’s prolly not that hard!! .....‍‍‍

Haha so I’ve been making lots of LS and I’m getting it down. Because this is eventually going to be sold to the public, I’m thinking I should have a preservative in there..?? The company is Organic and all natural, so I have to abide by those standards. I tried adding citric acid at dilution unsuccessfully a few times.
What are the pros opinions..?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Bacterial infections are totally organic and all natural, so that's a win for the company!

Seriously, though - a bit of a good quality preservative verses the risk of some nasties (but natural nasties) growing in there? That's not a hard choice.

 

[Susie]

I'm with Craig on this. The only way I would sell liquid soap without a preservative to the public would be to have no more than 6 oz and have a 6 month expiration date on it. Period. I would not feel completely comfortable doing so, however.

 

[Kamahido]

There is currently no effective natural preservative on the market. Sadly, your only options are to offer a liquid soap with a synthetic preservative, or offer a liquid soap that may grow all-natural mold or bacteria.

 

[lsg]

I agree with the above posters. I would not use a liquid or cream soap that doesn't contain a preservative; and I certainly would not sell or share cream or liquid soap that doesn't contain a preservative. You can open yourself up to litigation if a customer develops a rash or skin infection using the product.

 

[LoryLu]

I get it, I get it...So what would you all recommend for a preservative..?? And I assume citric acid is not a soap preservative..

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I'm curious as to why it would be thought to be so

 

[lsg]

Liquid Germall Plus is a good preservative to use in formulas which contain water. Citric acid is used to adjust pH. It is not a preservative.

 

[Sultana]

Bacterial infections are totally organic and all natural, so that's a win for the company!

Seriously, though - a bit of a good quality preservative verses the risk of some nasties (but natural nasties) growing in there? That's not a hard choice.

Natural nasties can still kill someone. Especially those with certain health conditions. The fact one would use the word "natural" with a potential health and well being issue is disturbing.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Don't take me the wrong way - I don't like when people want something "all natural" over something good. Natural does not always mean good, and as you say, many natural things can kill you.

Natural can be pretty terrible, so I will take a good unnatural preservative over some natural but dangerous bacteria any day

My highlight on the natural nasties part was to make that clear - things that can kill are also natural, not that I think that they are good.

 

[reeeen4]

To be honest I would prefer to buy a soap that has a risk of growing mould over a preservative, liquid soap gets used so fast in my house with so many dirty boys in the house that it doesn't last long enough to get mouldy.
I'm more concerned about the effects of preservatives on my body over long term use, yes it's great that they kill bateria and inhibit mould but if they are strong enough to do that then they will be strong enough to effect your skin in a negative way surely. You read a lot of things about various preservatives causing oxidative DNA damage, endocrine disruption and potentially adding to your risk of cancer, who knows how much of it is true but it is still concering.

People talk about having a responsibility to their customers to keep them safe from infection and mould but what about safe from the health effects of long term use of your product that contains a preservative, preservitives that every year of scientific research seems to keep uncovering more dangers, for example a while ago people though parabens (used in many cosmetic and personal care products) were reletively safe, but now they have been proven to have endocrine disruption effects, same with Phthalates (found in fragrances, hair products, skin lotions, nail polish and nail hardeners) now they have been linked with endometriosis and early puberty in girls, and reproductive organ abnormalities and reduced fertility in males. Or Triclosan which is a preservative and antibacterial agent found in personal care products such as antiperspirant, soap, hand wash and toothpaste. Tests have shown endocrine disruptor effects. (read more here)

My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?

Not saying natural is better either, some natural occuring things can kill you too.

I'm sure some people with dissagree with this but this is my opinion and just some food for thought!!

While liquid germal definitly seems safer then alot of other preservatives you might still want to research each individual ingredient to be sure about it and make sure your comfortable with it.
Liquid Germal Contains:
Diazolidinyl Urea
Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
Propylene Glycol

 

[kasilofchrisn]

My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?

I think your question goes both ways.
How would you feel knowing someone used your soap that they stored awhile, against your warnings, and had turned moldy and they got sick? What if they washed a cut with it which became infected and resulted in a lost limb?
I think the odds are better that the mold gets them before the preservative does.

I'm relatively new to preservatives so really can't offer much to the OP other than I recommend using one for liquid soaps and lotions.

 

[reeeen4]

I also agree with that too, which is why I'm having such a hard time deciding whether to incorporate preservatives in some of my products of not!

It's easy to tailor something to my family (not putting preservatives in my liquid soap since we use it so fast) but hard with other people!

I feel your pain @LoryLu I'm going through the same decision, my market is mosty organic and health concious people so it's not an easy one! but I'm interested to see what you decide.

 

[lenarenee]

I went through the fear of preservatives a few years ago. I took the time to really investigate some of them - reading some of the actual studies.
I don't remember the specifics, but decided the cons of NOT using preservative far outweighed using them.

Many of the studies had issues - such as using massive amounts of the ingredients in rodents. Literally...in, as in they ingested the preservative instead of testing it topically. Some results were considered inconclusive - but the internet changed that to "dangerous" simply because the study was done. Then - there's the whole assumption that if it happens in rodents then it must happen in humans, right? (uh, no!) There were other issues too but off the top of my head can't remember them.

I came away with the belief it was far better to use preservatives than not. (I remember when commercial liquid soap first came out in decorative bottles that our boys loved - we refilled those things for YEARS without ever so much as rinsing them out, added water to try to make the last drops last longer, etc.! It never occurred to me that soap bottles get dirty too!) If I sold products - I would absolutely use proper systems of preservative and have products challenge tested. You never know how people will misuse them!

Btw, if you sell - have your products challenge tested. Anything less is extremely irresponsible.

I make liquid soap for ourselves - don't even give it away. I DON'T preserve it for personal use. I do refrigerate the paste, and only dilute what I need to fill our bottles. I re-use the bottles too - which we're not supposed to. But I use a bleach solution to disinfect them after a thorough scrubbing.

The internet is filled with half-baked, half-truths and outright rumor disguised as truth and being passed around for free. It's a lot of time and work to dig deep enough to find the truth, but it might be worth it for you.

 

[lenarenee]

Okay, now that I gave you the "nice" reply to your preservative conundrum, here's what I really think: it's foolish to not use preservatives. This is what happens. (this was a lotion that did contain preservatives - except they were not the correct ones. The black strings were 2 inches long. The pump became clogged with them. I bought this lotion from a top seller on Amazon. I applied the lotion at night, in a darkened bedroom and wasn't paying attention. But the following night I was wide awake and saw this.....!

 

[lenarenee]

And this. Bacteria, mold and other microbes can be rampant in your product yet completely invisible. By the time it becomes THIS visible the product is wholly contaminated and dangerous.

Imagine smearing that on your children. This is not a wash off product like soap.

(sorry admins, but I thought the full image was better for clarity)

 

[reeeen4]

Ergh that's horrid! Hmmm this is why I think I'm going to stick to things that don't need water like solid and dry things like shampoo bars, bath bombs or bath salts etc. so I can avoid this but also avoid having to use preservatives.

 

[Sultana]

To be honest I would prefer to buy a soap that has a risk of growing mould over a preservative, liquid soap gets used so fast in my house with so many dirty boys in the house that it doesn't last long enough to get mouldy.
I'm more concerned about the effects of preservatives on my body over long term use, yes it's great that they kill bateria and inhibit mould but if they are strong enough to do that then they will be strong enough to effect your skin in a negative way surely. You read a lot of things about various preservatives causing oxidative DNA damage, endocrine disruption and potentially adding to your risk of cancer, who knows how much of it is true but it is still concering.

People talk about having a responsibility to their customers to keep them safe from infection and mould but what about safe from the health effects of long term use of your product that contains a preservative, preservitives that every year of scientific research seems to keep uncovering more dangers, for example a while ago people though parabens (used in many cosmetic and personal care products) were reletively safe, but now they have been proven to have endocrine disruption effects, same with Phthalates (found in fragrances, hair products, skin lotions, nail polish and nail hardeners) now they have been linked with endometriosis and early puberty in girls, and reproductive organ abnormalities and reduced fertility in males. Or Triclosan which is a preservative and antibacterial agent found in personal care products such as antiperspirant, soap, hand wash and toothpaste. Tests have shown endocrine disruptor effects. (read more here)

My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?

Not saying natural is better either, some natural occuring things can kill you too.

I'm sure some people with dissagree with this but this is my opinion and just some food for thought!!

While liquid germal definitly seems safer then alot of other preservatives you might still want to research each individual ingredient to be sure about it and make sure your comfortable with it.
Liquid Germal Contains:
Diazolidinyl Urea
Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
Propylene Glycol

If you look at the order of how ingredients are listed on a label you will notice that the preservatives are near the end because of how little is in the product. Then look and see how far up the list the possible rancid oils etc are on the list. Goggle health effects of rancid oils in products. You might change your mind. As far as Propylene Glycol the dangers of that have been greatly enhanced. Many companies put out that Propylene Glycol IS antifreeze and it is not. It is an ingredient in antifreeze. That doesn't mean it is all bad.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And it's always a percentage of a percentage. 1% of my lotion is preservative. How much of that 1% might bad for you? Say 50% just for fun. So 0.5% of the lotion might be bad for you. How much of that is able to pass in to us in a way that allows that 0.5% to actually have a chance to do dangerous things? And how much lotion do you use?

By the time you are done calculating, mould has grown in the unpreserved lotions........

 

[cmzaha]

If you look at the order of how ingredients are listed on a label you will notice that the preservatives are near the end because of how little is in the product. Then look and see how far up the list the possible rancid oils etc are on the list. Goggle health effects of rancid oils in products. You might change your mind. As far as Propylene Glycol the dangers of that have been greatly enhanced. Many companies put out that Propylene Glycol IS antifreeze and it is not. It is an ingredient in antifreeze. That doesn't mean it is all bad.

They started using Propylene Glycol in antifreeze to replace the original ingredient (I do not remember what it was), to make it safer and not kill animals especially dogs if they were to like up some antifreeze.

I would much rather have 1% or so of preservative and not risk the possibility of Blood Infection or Sepsis due to an infection through a scratch after using a contaminated lotion. I have actually gone back to using PhenoNip more often, since it is still the most reliable preservative.