Pouring mix then "gelling/setting" - what is your process?

[RogueRose]

I was recently informed that this process isn't the curing process, I thought it was part of the curing process, so now I'm wondering what it is actually called.

What is the actually requirements for a good gelling to take place, what temps need to be sustained, etc.

One member said that they use the oven at a lowest temp temp to heat the moulds, pure mix, then put in oven with no heat until it is ready to be removed.

I use a Styrofoam cooler and I would say that the temp is about 110-130 degrees on average but I don't know if that is adequate or if it should be higher, lower or what.

I have ideas as to how to create a controlled environment to regulate temp and humidity if that would help things.

Can humidity effect things?

What is the ideal temp? What does a too high a temp do? What does too low do?

Finally, should the moulds be covered while gelling? I have never done this and I get nice results, sometimes a SLIGHTLY lighter color on the tip 1/4mm of the soap, but it actually gives a nice, home-made look to the soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

There are certainly guidelines and pointers, but what specific temperature will depend on YOUR moulds, recipes, location in the world and so on.

If you're looking to consistently gel, I would use the CPOP method you described (putting the full moulds in a preheated oven but turned off) but keeping an eye out for any monkey business.

 

[Susie]

I soap a little warmer than the folks who swirl. I just lay my mold on a towel, place a piece of cardboard over the top, and cover with a folded beach towel. Then keep an eye on it until 3-4 hours are past to prevent volcano.

 

[Cindy2428]

RR- as EG mentioned, there are a lot of variables when it comes to gel. Yes, your temperature will have an impact; Have you checked your soap temp after it's poured? I still use full water and notice my temps will rise for up to 35-50 minutes after I pour. Curing continues after that point for complete saponification to allow for water evaporation in your soap. As EG mentioned, monitoring your soap is important so it doesn't overheat or volcano, (blow up out of your mold where it gets too hot). Your ingredients, the amount of water you use, your soaping temperature, and your FO can all have an impact on what happens. I cannot speak to humidity, but I would guess that higher humidity would slow water evaporation-curing in your soap because of the glycerin, (humectant) that your soap produces. HP soaps always achieve full gel because it's basically cooked to full saponification. But it's not fully "cured" until most of the water/liquid has evaporated. In CP soap, you have essentially created the batter in which the saponification process is beginning. Once you SB all of your ingredients and you achieve your desired level of trace, you have fully incorporated your lye solution. It has not yet saponified. This (time) will depend on your recipe. If you have a recipe that you really like start experimenting. Split your batch, cover one, leave the other uncovered. Take temps every 10 minutes for both and see what happens. If you make a big enough batch, you could CPOP the 3rd batch - heat your oven to it's lowest setting, (usually around 170) and using an oven safe mold place your soap in for 1-2 hrs and then turn your oven off. Keep a close eye on it and if you start seeing cracks form - usually in the middle, it's overheating. Keep in the oven overnight, or 4-6 hrs and you will generally achieve full gel. I hope this answered some of your Q's and I know you already know this but Styrofoam is not oven safe.

 

[JustBeachy]

To answer some of your questions.

Too high of a temperature can lead to an overheated soap. Volcano's, separation, cracks and trips to the re batching station.
Too low of a temperature can lead to Gel rings and soaps that just take a bit longer to process.

I'm not one of those that has been able to "embrace the ash". For me, covering the soaps with saran wrap has pretty much eliminated any visible SA.

I like fully gelled soaps, so I CPOP all of my soaps, with the exception of Salt Bars, which get hot enough on their own. My CPOP is a little different than others I've seen on here. I don't preheat the molds, I mix at between 100 and 110 F, pour into molds, cover with saran wrap. They go into a preheated 170F oven for between 45 mins to 1 hour. I check them starting at the 40 min mark, looking for full gel. They all hit full gel within this time frame. Once I see the full gel, I remove them from the oven, and set them on a shelf to cool. No further insulation.

I'm sure if the humidity was varied drastically, it could effect the results. But I don't think with soaping indoors, that you're going to notice enough of a difference in humidity conditions, to effect your process. Unless maybe you're soaping in the bathroom, while everyone is taking showers.

 

[Seawolfe]

My oven doesn't do CPOP well - I've had soap overheat a couple of times. What does work for me in the winter is putting my mold on a tray and that on my gas floor heater that has a pilot light and is always warm. The molds get lids and wrapped in towels too.

In summer my wood mold doesn't need anything to ensure gel, half the time not even a lid. But my silicon flat mold absolutely needs a towel wrapped around it to ensure that the sides don't cool too fast. I also have to keep an eye on my silicone molds lid - if I see condensation I tilt it to let it ventilate.

 

[DeeAnna]

I was recently informed that this process isn't the curing process, I thought it was part of the curing process, so now I'm wondering what it is actually called.

It's the saponification stage.

What is the actually requirements for a good gelling to take place, what temps need to be sustained, etc.

It varies. A decent rule of thumb to cause soap to gel is to CPOP as others have advised.

I use a Styrofoam cooler and I would say that the temp is about 110-130 degrees on average but I don't know if that is adequate or if it should be higher, lower or what.

Your foam cooler and moderately warm temps may or may not be enough. Some soaps will gel under these conditions -- or even sitting out on the counter uncovered -- but some will not gel. Again, if you really want to ensure gel in a cold process soap, do CPOP.

I have ideas as to how to create a controlled environment to regulate temp and humidity if that would help things.

Temperature is important to saponification and gel, but humidity is not. Humidity plays a larger role during the curing period.

What is the ideal temp? What does a too high a temp do? What does too low do?

There is no one "ideal" temperature for all soaps all of the time. Temperature is certainly an important variable, but other factors affect the saponification rate as well.

Water content, the types of fats, the lye solution concentration, the use of any sugary additives, initial temperature of the ingredients, size of the batch, type of mold, use of a stick blender, etc. will all affect the temp at which a soap will go into gel and the rate at which it saponifies.

The question from my perspective is more about what is the best way to control the saponification rate for any given batch of soap.

You want the saponification rate to be fast enough to generate enough heat to cause the soap to go into gel, but not so fast that the soap overheats. A successful "not too fast, not too slow" saponification to get a full gel requires some attention; you can't just pop it into a cooler or oven and walk away knowing all will be well.

Finally, should the moulds be covered while gelling?

Cover or don't cover, as you prefer. Covering may reduce the amount of ash that forms on the top of the soap, although some just use plastic food wrap for controlling ash. A cover may also help insulate the soap and retain more heat energy. A cover prevents you from seeing the soap and determining whether it's going into gel or overheating or not gelling or whatever.

 

[pamielynn]

Since my molds are too long to fit in an oven, I just use layers of blankets to ensure that my soaps gel all the way through. I do have several HDPE molds that do no hold heat at all - so my DH made "insulators" that go around those molds - then I put some towels over that whole contraption. But I have a house with really high ceilings and open rooms - so the rooms are cold almost all the time.

The temps I soap at vary depending on the recipe and if I'm using a grumpy fragrance oil.

 

[DWinMadison]

At least I FINALLY know what "cpop" means! I've never even thought about gelling soap in the oven or the need to do so. I cover mine, wrap it in a beach towel and set on the washer in the laundry. It's often still warm to the touch after 18 hours. I usually cut around the 24-hour mark. I might try placing mine on a high shelf to see what happens. It's "winter," such as we have it here in the "deep south" but the heat runs pretty frequently, and since it rises, the temp up close to the ceiling is a few degrees warmer than the ambient room temp.

 

[DeeAnna]

Even if I'm not actually doing CPOP, I often put my filled molds in the unheated oven just to keep my ever-curious cats and dogs from coming in contact with them. Last time I soaped, I made two different recipes and put both molds into the room temp oven for safety's sake.

I used pretty much the same method and the same type of loaf mold for both batches, but the recipes were quite different. One batch fully gelled, and one didn't gel at all.

If I'd preheated my oven to about 170 deg F, turned the oven off, and put the molds in to finish up, I think both batches would have gelled. The second one needed just a wee bit more energy to push it over the edge.

edit: But the one that did gel had a few tiny cracks which are signs that this soap was just on the edge of being too hot. This recipe had coconut and beer (added sugars) and showed signs of thickening and saponifying more quickly as I was pouring the soap into the mold. The non-gelled recipe didn't have any coconut -- the main fats were lard and olive oil -- and was made with plain water. This batter remained thin and workable for a longer time, which tells me it was saponifying more slowly.

 

[DeeAnna]

The oven isn't strictly needed. Some people just insulate really well like you do, Daryl, or even use a heating pad for awhile to add a bit of extra heat.

Another option is to warm up your fats a bit more and use a warmer lye solution. That has its downside if you want to do fancy swirls and such, because the recipe will generally trace faster with warmer starting ingredients.

 

[dixiedragon]

This question is so broad - it depends on your fragrances, ingredients, etc. I almost always gel - but I am making an exception for coconut FOs, b/c the scent seems to do better (not morph or fade) with cooler temps. Sometimes I use the oven and do a long, hard gel, some times I just wrap in towels and go to bed.

I always cover my soaps unless they are in the oven, b/c I have cats.

 

[JustBeachy]

This question is so broad - it depends on your fragrances, ingredients, etc. I almost always gel - but I am making an exception for coconut FOs, b/c the scent seems to do better (not morph or fade) with cooler temps. Sometimes I use the oven and do a long, hard gel, some times I just wrap in towels and go to bed.

I always cover my soaps unless they are in the oven, b/c I have cats.

I would have to agree with the coconut FO's, fading and also add, that they can heat up pretty quick as well. Last Coconut soap, I had to pull it out of the oven in 25 mins, cause it was gelling.

 

[Seawolfe]

You want the saponification rate to be fast enough to generate enough heat to cause the soap to go into gel, but not so fast that the soap overheats. A successful "not too fast, not too slow" saponification to get a full gel requires some attention; you can't just pop it into a cooler or oven and walk away knowing all will be well.

^^^ this! so much this!
Part of the craft is learning what works with your particular tools and recipes in your particular environment.

 

[DeeAnna]

Oh, my girl cats Tish and Cleo -- I could see either of them packaged on top of a nice warm saponifying soap. Yanno how cats like to get into cramped boxes and such? Add some warmth and that's my girls' idea of heaven.

Cleo is the gray cat. Tish is the calico.

 

[navigator9]

Cleo and Tish........

 

[dixiedragon]

Awwww KITTEHS!

 

[JustBeachy]

I've had dogs, and cats. While I can't say i like one better than the other, I love cats attitudes. That look on Cleo's face says it all, "Yeah I'm sitting up here...so what."

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

That look on Cleo's face says it all, "Yeah I'm sitting up here...so what."

"Tell it to the Union, buddy - I ain't working till this is sorted."

 

[dixiedragon]

I've had dogs, and cats. While I can't say i like one better than the other, I love cats attitudes. That look on Cleo's face says it all, "Yeah I'm sitting up here...so what."

We also have both. I tell people who aren't into cats that, "Cats are all selfish a-holes. Once you learn to love that about them, then you're a cat person." I read an interesting article that theorized that we didnt tame cats - that cats evolved to manipulate us so they could mooch off of us. Hence the purrs and the faces that have proportions similar to a human babies.

Back on topic - Unlike Deanna and Seawolfe, I totally just put my soap in the oven or wrapped and towels and assume "all we be well". And it almost always is. I had one batch seperate (I mixed too hot, and it was an old FO), that I stirred back together in the mold (and ended up throwing away b/c it smelled yucky from the old FO.) Other than that, no problems. I think it helps that I use lard. I think lard is just a very well-behaved soaping oil. Also, I use full water.