possible lye pockets- any advice?

[EddyLab]

Hello my friends from the soap forum!
I accidentally sold soap that maybe lye heavy/may have some lye pockets in it. I think the formulation is like 99,99% ok because the chances are small, but I am very concerned about this mistake.

The ph is ok around 8-9, there is no particular sting but some tingle on the skin and it irritates a little. I am a bit confused about supposed and probable lye pockets, because I make my soap in a high speed blender vitamix and the soaps often have air bubbles in them. I just don’t know if the soap is lye heavy or not, or if it just needs more time.

I am pretty stressed out cause I sold this soap to one person, and I almost immediately recalled the product being uncertain(I knew she wasn’t going to use them before Christmas). She is resistant to give them back because they are all wrapped separately in about 20 packages and doesn’t know which one is the one. Any suggestions on how to graciously deal with that?

Can you help me determine if this soap is problematic, see the photos.
1-clay soap: stings the skin a little after 6 weeks cure
2-olive oil pure(just ro show even ok soap have air bubbles because of vitamix): also stings the skin after a month but usually cure much longer, eventhough this soap doesnt usually stings
3-honey soap , I suspect the beeswax didn’t mix properly. It doesn’t sting but the is little white pockets in it.

1 Clay and 2 Honey Soap

450g olive oil
250g coco
100g sunflower
302g water (272g 10% discount for honey)
108g lye

honey: 15g honey
10 g beeswax

Clay: 2 tbs clay in 2 tbs water

I dried these soap in an appartment building locker that has open ceiling connecting to other lockers so air goes through, with a fan directly blowing on them, with about 50% moisture. I wonder if this place is problematic because every soap I dry there seems to have soda ash, stings or be lye heavy after a month, eventhough some of them turn ok after a while. I have never had soda ash on my olive oil soap before, and it is the same recipe. Maybe the problem is the high speed blender?

 

[Catscankim]

I can't say for sure, but I definitely do not think it has to do with storage. That would be a dos problem. Or sweating... or a myriad of other storage problems, but being lye heavy is not one of those problems.

TO ME it looks like air pockets and clay or honey...wish I could get honey pockets on purpose LOL. In the future, I wouldn't give anything away unless you know it is fine to begin with. How long did you cure it before you gave it to her?

I haven't run your recipe through a soap calculator...I presume you did before you made it???

I might be inclined to send her a letter saying that the soap is unsafe to use if you believe so. And offer replacements or a refund. If she chooses to still give it away, then it is on her. Probably CYA and refund the money regardless.

In the future, I use my ends as test soaps. I don't send out a soap unless I have used it personally. You never know when you might have omitted an oil or under measured. Just a tip.

 

[DeeAnna]

You say the pH is 8-9 which is telling me you aren't properly testing the pH of your soap. No true lye-based soap will have an accurate pH of 8-9. If for some reason the real pH of the soap was that low, the soap would be largely decomposed into fatty acids; it would no longer be functional soap.

Another issue about measuring pH alone is the pH isn't proof positive that the soap is not lye heavy. This is true even if you tested the pH properly. The gold standard test for excess lye is the free alkali test. Next best is the zap test.

So ... have you zap tested these soaps? If the zap test is negative (not zappy) and the soap is well cured, then the harshness of the soap is related to something else.

My guess about why you're having problems is the fats you're using will make soap that is highly soluble in water. In addition to that, the coconut oil is over 30% of the total fats which raises the lauric and myristic acid content to 21% (aka this is the "cleansing" number). This percentage is high enough to irritate and dry the skin for a fair number of people.

Your recipe calculates out to be fine with a rather high superfat -- around 14% by my calculations. Even if you're using high purity reagent grade NaOH, that is more than enough superfat to ensure the soap is not lye heavy. You need to verify your scale is accurate however -- the most accurate recipe isn't worth the paper it's written on if the scale is not working right.

Do you know in Canada that you need to get your soap recipes reviewed and approved before you can sell?

 

[EddyLab]

I can't say for sure, but I definitely do not think it has to do with storage. That would be a dos problem. Or sweating... or a myriad of other storage problems, but being lye heavy is not one of those problems.

TO ME it looks like air pockets and clay or honey...wish I could get honey pockets on purpose LOL. In the future, I wouldn't give anything away unless you know it is fine to begin with. How long did you cure it before you gave it to her?

I haven't run your recipe through a soap calculator...I presume you did before you made it???

I might be inclined to send her a letter saying that the soap is unsafe to use if you believe so. And offer replacements or a refund. If she chooses to still give it away, then it is on her. Probably CYA and refund the money regardless.

In the future, I use my ends as test soaps. I don't send out a soap unless I have used it personally. You never know when you might have omitted an oil or under measured. Just a tip.

Definitely not on purpose, these honey pockets
Yes, of course I forgot to add that this recipe have been verified with soap calc, and without the honey and wax I have been making it a long time and it’s great.
I also tested the ph and its fine also.
And of course, I tested it on me also, It was only a little hard and I figured a little more cure time was the key, but I regret it and I don’t usually give soap before I tested it a while. The thing is I made all the tests and everything seemed ok.
It doesn’t look like DOS, believe me I know
Tx!

You say the pH is 8-9 which is telling me you aren't properly testing the pH of your soap. No true lye-based soap will have an accurate pH of 8-9. If for some reason the real pH of the soap was that low, the soap would be largely decomposed into fatty acids; it would no longer be functional soap.

Another issue about measuring pH alone is the pH isn't proof positive that the soap is not lye heavy. This is true even if you tested the pH properly. The gold standard test for excess lye is the free alkali test. Next best is the zap test.

So ... have you zap tested these soaps? If the zap test is negative (not zappy) and the soap is well cured, then the harshness of the soap is related to something else.

My guess about why you're having problems is the fats you're using will make soap that is highly soluble in water. In addition to that, the coconut oil is over 30% of the total fats which raises the lauric and myristic acid content to 21% (aka this is the "cleansing" number). This percentage is high enough to irritate and dry the skin for a fair number of people.

Your recipe calculates out to be fine with a rather high superfat -- around 14% by my calculations. Even if you're using high purity reagent grade NaOH, that is more than enough superfat to ensure the soap is not lye heavy. You need to verify your scale is accurate however -- the most accurate recipe isn't worth the paper it's written on if the scale is not working right.

Do you know in Canada that you need to get your soap recipes reviewed and approved before you can sell?

Hey thanks for your reply!
I test my ph according to the best info I could find , here: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/how-to-ph-test-handmade-soap
« pH testing handmade soap typically shows a result between 8 and 10, but can creep up near a pH of 11. »
This is consistent with my experience. Maybe the ph chart is different?
But eventhough I do my best to test correctly, I know the ph test is probably not the best/only indication to determine if a soap is ok. The free alkali test would probably be better, thanks for the tip!

I have indeed zap tested these soap. They were fine. This recipe is also one I have made a lot, I have found it in a book specialized in soap making, and I can say it is softer on the skin than many others, including the store bought in my opinion. But I appreciate your comment about the percentages and will look into it. I should also probably test my scale, that’s a great idea.

 

[Catscankim]

^^ what @DeeAnna said, she is the resident scientist. We also have a resident attorney here that might help with legalities, although you are in Canada where the laws are different.

I know its not dos, I just said that would be the problem if it was due to the way it was stored.

Hope you figure it out and I hope your soap was good enough to give to ppl.

 

[EddyLab]

^^ what @DeeAnna said, she is the resident scientist. We also have a resident attorney here that might help with legalities, although you are in Canada where the laws are different.

I know its not dos, I just said that would be the problem if it was due to the way it was stored.

Hope you figure it out and I hope your soap was good enough to give to ppl.

Thank you very much! As I already said, I wouldn’t take a chance, I only gave it to one person and recalled it immediately, and I know it was a mistake. I also knew she wasn’t going to use it before a couple months and told her to wait because she’s a friend and not a client. Just to be clear: I don’t really sell soap, it is an exchange between friends. Anyways, I am grateful for your perspective

 

[Obsidian]

If the soap isn't zappy then its not lye heavy and you don't have to worry on that front. Does the soap hurt you while you are using it or after you dry your hands? What scent was used? The additional clay could be drying your skin and making it hurt while some spicy FO can sting sensitive skin. I can't use cinnamon scents in any amount without it burning. Maybe have someone else test your soap and see if its just you or if its the soap.

As for lye pockets, they generally form when soap over heats and small craters form in the soap. The lye solution filles the pockets where it can solidify into lye crystals. There is no mistaking a weepy, oily, caustic pocket when you find one.

If you don't dissolve your lye thoroughly, you can also get lye crystals in your soap that way. You can dig open one of the bubbles and look for little crystals but that shouldn't happen unless you are careless when making your lye solution.

Your little bubbles are just air bubbles from your blended. You'd have less of them if you used a stick blender.

 

[TheGecko]

Can you help me determine if this soap is problematic, see the photos.
1-clay soap: stings the skin a little after 6 weeks cure
2-olive oil pure(just ro show even ok soap have air bubbles because of vitamix): also stings the skin after a month but usually cure much longer, eventhough this soap doesnt usually stings
3-honey soap , I suspect the beeswax didn’t mix properly. It doesn’t sting but the is little white pockets in it.

Clay can be drying on skin that is sensitive to it. I am very sensitive to French Green Clay, but I have no issues with other clays.

When I use Clay in soap, I hydrate it well with additional water; at least 3 to one.

I try to never sell or give away any soap that is not fully cured (6 to 8) weeks unless I know with absolute certainty that the recipient is not going to use it before them and I'm clear that they shouldn't use it before xx date or it will feel "harsh" on their skin.

If you did a zap test and didn't get zapped, then it is doubtful that your soap is lye-heavy. Most likely it is a clay sensitivity or someone who used a uncured bar of soap.

 

[EddyLab]

If the soap isn't zappy then its not lye heavy and you don't have to worry on that front. Does the soap hurt you while you are using it or after you dry your hands? What scent was used? The additional clay could be drying your skin and making it hurt while some spicy FO can sting sensitive skin. I can't use cinnamon scents in any amount without it burning. Maybe have someone else test your soap and see if its just you or if its the soap.

As for lye pockets, they generally form when soap over heats and small craters form in the soap. The lye solution filles the pockets where it can solidify into lye crystals. There is no mistaking a weepy, oily, caustic pocket when you find one.

If you don't dissolve your lye thoroughly, you can also get lye crystals in your soap that way. You can dig open one of the bubbles and look for little crystals but that shouldn't happen unless you are careless when making your lye solution.

Your little bubbles are just air bubbles from your blended. You'd have less of them if you used a stick blender.

Thank you that is very helpful. So there is no mistaking a lye pocket, it’s true that it happened once on one soap and there was a pretty obvious crater/lye pocket with liquid inside. Right now I also strain the lye solution just to be extra careful.

I used no FO and no EO in that soap. It tends to feel a little burning sensation after I dry my hands. The more I read you guys, I tend to think this soap just needs a little more time to cure and that the bubbles are only air/undissolved wax.

I developed this technique of soap making with a high speed stainless steel blender to accommodate physical limitations, and it seems to work well. It seems, but maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it doesn’t mix the lye long enough, even if at high speed. Yo guys think a big kitchenaid stand mixer with a stainless steel container would do the work? Maybe I’ll do another post about this.

Clay can be drying on skin that is sensitive to it. I am very sensitive to French Green Clay, but I have no issues with other clays.

When I use Clay in soap, I hydrate it well with additional water; at least 3 to one.

I try to never sell or give away any soap that is not fully cured (6 to 8) weeks unless I know with absolute certainty that the recipient is not going to use it before them and I'm clear that they shouldn't use it before xx date or it will feel "harsh" on their skin.

If you did a zap test and didn't get zapped, then it is doubtful that your soap is lye-heavy. Most likely it is a clay sensitivity or someone who used a uncured bar of soap.

Ok, I understand the possible sensitivity with clay. I do 1 tbs water for 1tbs clay, but maybe I should put more water. In many recipes I read the cure time was 4-6 weeks, but I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start aiming for more than that at least 6-8 weeks. Tx

 

[Obsidian]

Your blender is working fine at mixing the soap, air bubbles don't hurt anything. I don't think a kitchenaid would make a difference so stick with what is working for you.

Do you happen to have dry skin? Are you using winter heat? My skin get incredibly dry during the winter, I have to be careful which soap I use.
I tend to switch to a very low cleansing soap to prevent dry skin which can appear as tightness or burning before it starts to crack.

I rarely use clay but when I do, I use just enough water to make a smooth slurry and blend it into the oils before adding the lye.

I cure for at least 8 weeks, usually much longer.

 

[DeeAnna]

...pH testing handmade soap typically shows a result between 8 and 10, but can creep up near a pH of 11. »
This is consistent with my experience. Maybe the ph chart is different....

You really shouldn't be getting pH values below 9 for soap. Actually a minimum pH of 9.5 is more realistic.

The pH values reported by soap makers are very often inaccurate. If you measure the pH of soap accurately, you should be seeing pH values between 9.5 and 11.5 for soap that does not contain any excess lye. The specific pH value for a given soap will depend on the proportions of the fatty acids in the soap.

This range of pH means a soap with NO excess lye could realistically have a higher pH than another soap that DOES have excess lye. This is why the pH test alone isn't a good indication whether the soap is skin safe or not.

 

[EddyLab]

If you measure the pH of soap accurately, you should be seeing pH values between 9.5 and 11.5

You seem to be quite knowledgeable in the science domain, thanks for sharing your wisdom.
So the guidelines I followed to try to test the ph accurately, again here:

https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/how-to-ph-test-handmade-soap
suggest « First, I boiled my distilled water, which will serve two purposes: help eliminate carbon dioxide and help dissolve the soap. Next, I shaved pieces of the soap from the side of the bar, from top to bottom, using a paring knife, into a clean disposable cup.

I'm aiming for a 1% soap solution, meaning 1% of the solution is soap and 99% of the solution is distilled water. To make it easy, I weighed approximately 1 gram of soap and 99 grams of distilled water on my American Weigh Scale (AWS-100).

Next, I added the distilled water, with a temperature reading of about 70° C (158° F), to a glass mason jar and then added the soap shavings.

The standards mention that you should conduct the pH test at 40° C (plus or minus 2° C), which is about 104° F and that the solution should be rapidly cooled. To do so, I placed my mason jar is an ice bath and kept an eye on the temperature while I prepared the pH testing materials. »

Then test your solution with ph strips (here Lab rat strips seemed to get best results) and obtain wildly varying results…. depending on what strip you use…

The determination of free alkali in soap, is that something accessible to the common soaper? And more importantly, is that something small business do for every batch of soap? Anyways, thank you so much guys for your tremendous help, feel free to share or not if you can.

 

[EddyLab]

Do you happen to have dry skin? Are you using winter heat?

yes indeed, you got me I usually use almost exclusively olive oil soap or high superfat soaps. But I have a great experience with olive oil soap with only 0,5 Tablespoon of clay per pound. In this new experiment I put 1 Tbs pp of soap so it may be a little much for me. About this soap I asked about, Im pretty sure it’s not cured yet. I washed my hands way too much these days, to test many soaps so that could have an incidence too.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thank you that is very helpful. So there is no mistaking a lye pocket, it’s true that it happened once on one soap and there was a pretty obvious crater/lye pocket with liquid inside. Right now I also strain the lye solution just to be extra careful.

I used no FO and no EO in that soap. It tends to feel a little burning sensation after I dry my hands. The more I read you guys, I tend to think this soap just needs a little more time to cure and that the bubbles are only air/undissolved wax.

I developed this technique of soap making with a high speed stainless steel blender to accommodate physical limitations, and it seems to work well. It seems, but maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it doesn’t mix the lye long enough, even if at high speed. Yo guys think a big kitchenaid stand mixer with a stainless steel container would do the work? Maybe I’ll do another post about this.

So if you mix the lye solution until all the lye is dissolved, and you strain the lye solution I don;t see why there would be any issue other than what Deeanna has stated regarding the high content of CO making your skin sting/itch. Coupled wiht the colder temperatures of winter coming in - this could be all it is.

 

[DeeAnna]

The author of that Modern Soapmaking article also compares the test strips to a pH meter and concludes the pH meter does a better job.

To repeat myself, the pH of skin safe, functional soap will be somewhere between 9.5 and 11.5 -- possibly as low as 9 if you insist. But not below that, no matter what fatty acids you choose.

If you're getting answers below 9, there's an issue with your pH test protocol.

 

[EddyLab]

To repeat myself, the pH of skin safe, functional soap will be somewhere between 9.5 and 11.5

Got it! Safe ph between 9.5 and 11.5 -- AND there is something wrong with my testing.

 

[AliOop]

Got it! Safe ph between 9.5 and 11.5 -- AND there is something wrong with my testing.

… and no real benefit to pH testing since pH doesn’t tell you whether the soap is lye-heavy or not.

 

[hanaherrera]

Hello my friends from the soap forum!
I accidentally sold soap that maybe lye heavy/may have some lye pockets in it. I think the formulation is like 99,99% ok because the chances are small, but I am very concerned about this mistake.

The ph is ok around 8-9, there is no particular sting but some tingle on the skin and it irritates a little. I am a bit confused about supposed and probable lye pockets, because I make my soap in a high speed blender vitamix and the soaps often have air bubbles in them. I just don’t know if the soap is lye heavy or not, or if it just needs more time.

I am pretty stressed out cause I sold this soap to one person, and I almost immediately recalled the product being uncertain(I knew she wasn’t going to use them before Christmas). She is resistant to give them back because they are all wrapped separately in about 20 packages and doesn’t know which one is the one. Any suggestions on how to graciously deal with that?

Can you help me determine if this soap is problematic, see the photos.
1-clay soap: stings the skin a little after 6 weeks cure
2-olive oil pure(just ro show even ok soap have air bubbles because of vitamix): also stings the skin after a month but usually cure much longer, eventhough this soap doesnt usually stings
3-honey soap , I suspect the beeswax didn’t mix properly. It doesn’t sting but the is little white pockets in it.

1 Clay and 2 Honey Soap

450g olive oil
250g coco
100g sunflower
302g water (272g 10% discount for honey)
108g lye

honey: 15g honey
10 g beeswax

Clay: 2 tbs clay in 2 tbs water

I dried these soap in an appartment building locker that has open ceiling connecting to other lockers so air goes through, with a fan directly blowing on them, with about 50% moisture. I wonder if this place is problematic because every soap I dry there seems to have soda ash, stings or be lye heavy after a month, eventhough some of them turn ok after a while. I have never had soda ash on my olive oil soap before, and it is the same recipe. Maybe the problem is the high speed blender?

I have the same issue with my soaps. I just started making soaps late last year and find it therapeutic. Like all the stress that can overwhelm me in a day just disappears when I make soap.

The first batch I made seemed fine. I used one and it was fine until I've used up half of the bar where I felt a bit of a sting on my palms and on my arms. At first, I shrugged it off thinking maybe it was nothing until the following day, I didn't feel the same sting but, my arms began to itch so I had to rinse off quick! I think some bits of lye re-crystalized (???) somewhere in the middle of the bars so I'm thinking of rebatching to fix the remaining bars -- and more batches that I am now unsure of.

I have photos that are similar to yours that look like air bubbles mostly near the top of the bars. I think my stick blender is too powerful even if it's set to low and so, I'm unsure if the lye solution got properly incorporated with the oils. After just a few pulses, my batter was setting up so fast -- also because I've used oils that are fast moving ones - coconut, palm, canola, castor, rice bran, pomace, and cocoa and shea butters. I'm thinking I'd just stick with the slow moving oils -- pure olive and sweet almond, then a bit of the coconut and castor for the lather and bubbles. I also have photos of my bars having tiny pockets and suspect they're lye pockets too.

I also used some litmus paper to check the soap's ph and the results were always an 8 or a 9 but never 10 or 11. But I read somewhere that the litmus test cannot really tell if soap is lye heavy or if there are free alkali in the bars.

When I cut the bars, I didn't see any leaking or anything that will make me suspect that there would be something wrong with them. I could even hold the freshly cut bars with my bare hands and even rub them on my palms and not get stung. Until I made a new batch of tomato soaps with honey and coconut milk about 5 days ago...

After cutting, I could see tiny random specs of liquid glistening on the surface of some bars. I took of my gloves to touch one with my index finger and I got zapped and had to rinse it off right away. I dabbed a litmus paper on the specs and it was an 11 or 12 on the ph scale. But if I use litmus paper on the surface of the bar like when soapers test for their bar's ph, the results are within 8-9. One freshly cut bar accidentally landed on my palm while I was still trying to examine it after I had taken my gloves off, and after the surface of that bar hit my skin, I felt the skin where my fingers and palms meet burn. It doesn't hurt anymore but it took a while for the burning sensation to disappear.

I used soapcalc to calculate my recipe and made sure I followed all the measurements from the lye, water, and oils. So just like you, I suspect my stick blender is too strong that I reach trace far to quickly that I'm unable to sufficiently mix my batter or that my scale isn't giving me accurate measurements...

 

[hanaherrera]

If the soap isn't zappy then its not lye heavy and you don't have to worry on that front. Does the soap hurt you while you are using it or after you dry your hands? What scent was used? The additional clay could be drying your skin and making it hurt while some spicy FO can sting sensitive skin. I can't use cinnamon scents in any amount without it burning. Maybe have someone else test your soap and see if its just you or if its the soap.

As for lye pockets, they generally form when soap over heats and small craters form in the soap. The lye solution filles the pockets where it can solidify into lye crystals. There is no mistaking a weepy, oily, caustic pocket when you find one.

If you don't dissolve your lye thoroughly, you can also get lye crystals in your soap that way. You can dig open one of the bubbles and look for little crystals but that shouldn't happen unless you are careless when making your lye solution.

Your little bubbles are just air bubbles from your blended. You'd have less of them if you used a stick blender.

I think that's what happened to my bars -- the lye crystals and the pockets. Will rebatching fix the bars? Thank you!