Polysorbate 80 + Cetyl Alcohol

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Hello all

I'm putting together a shopping list and the price of my usual emulsifier (Olivem 1000) hit me when looking at larger amounts. So then I went digging.................

Polysorbate 80 alone is not going to cut it for anything a bit thicker - bath bombs, scrubs and so on are okay, but then lotions and creams maybe not so much. But then cetyl alcohol can be used a co-emulsifier!

The question is, though - at what sort of amounts? I haven't been able to find anything on the HLBness that cetyl alcohol brings to the mix, only what it requires from an oil-phase type ingredient.

Am I just :headbanging: ?

 

[shaan]

I would request you to post your question on Facebook group of making skincare. There are many experts there to answer.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

But from my further reading, I saw that Emulsifying Wax NF is made from a mix of the two - does anyone know the ratio? If I can get that, I could essentially make my own Emulsifying Wax NF by mixing the two. Would make things simpler. Alas, I can't see anything online about it, which isn't overly shocking as I can imagine them being a little bit precious with their recipe.

 

[kchaystack]

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

But from my further reading, I saw that Emulsifying Wax NF is made from a mix of the two - does anyone know the ratio? If I can get that, I could essentially make my own Emulsifying Wax NF by mixing the two. Would make things simpler. Alas, I can't see anything online about it, which isn't overly shocking as I can imagine them being a little bit precious with their recipe.

Actually Ewax NF is cetearyl alcohol and polysorbate 60.

See:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2009/10/emulsifying-systems-e-wax-polawax-and.html

Here is a post on calculating the HLB and portions of each. Its pretty math heavy, but I have faith in you!

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/04/hlb-system-using-different-emulsifiers.html

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Top links - I'll have a sit down with something to drink (maybe not a brandy) and see if I can get it worked out [emoji851]

 

[Dahila]

it is so overwhelming that I am carrying the notes with me and can not start to learn it, I just use ready system like BMTS-50 and my most loved Lotion pro 165 the last one makes very light lotion so for thickness add cetyl and for thin add cetyl esters , I love it
TEG when you get the Hbl system maybe you have a way to explain it in simple terms good luck

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I think I might have to put together a hlb calculator, in the same way that we have lye calculators. The maths isn't much more complicated for hlb, but if I'm honest I wouldn't choose to calculate the lye for soap by hand, either

 

[cherrycoke216]

I'm with dahlia, I used to use Olivem 1000, and now ventured into BTMS 50 & cetyl alcohol. BTMS has a drier feel, feels absorbing it quicker. And can be used in emulsified scrubs, hair conditioners, facial lotion, body butter and so on. Very versatile product.

There's also wheat germ emulsify wax, and other botanical based emulsify wax. Not quite sure on the price though. Haven't look into it.

 

[Dahila]

I tried the botanical waxes and I do not like it, but I love , I love Cera Belina it is fantastic, so smooth and easy to use, I use it for my face serum, very spreadable
I also use cold emulsifiers and occasionally Emulsimulse; it is similar to BMTS - 50 in feel , gives a fantastic feeling to hand cream or sugar scrub

 

[DeeAnna]

There are HLB calcs, just like soap recipe calcs. I haven't tried any of these, but here ya go --

http://www.makingskincare.com/hlb-calculator/ (free, download)
http://www.lotioncrafter.com/hlb-calculator.html (payment required, download)
www.al-nasir.com/www/PharmCalc/mob_exec_calc.php?ID=hlb (free, online but you need to know the HLB values of the ingredients. )

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Okay, as a follow up a very helpful, smart, and patient member (you know who you are!) has helped me to come to a starting point to try. I'll be starting at 3% Cetyl Alcohol and 5% Polysorbate 80 and see how it holds up, but it looks as though it will be a viable and much cheaper alternative to my old emulsifier (12.50€ for 1kg cetyl alcohol and 13.95€ for 1kg of polysorbate 80 rather than 70€ for 1kg of the other emulsifier!) but might just take some fiddling about.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

 

[DeeAnna]

I sure hope that works, Craig. I'm very interested to see your results.

 

[cmzaha]

Have you tried this? Same ingredients as olivem 1000. Not sure if it saves you purchasing from a London supplier.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

(free, online but you need to know the HLB values of the ingredients. )

I have a 19-page PDF file from Convergent Cosmetics that contains HLB values and explains the system, if anyone is interested...