Pine tar soap did not turn out right

[luvbentley]

Hi guys. I have done three soaps so far, a plain castile soap, a coffee soap, but my third, a pine tar soap, has turned out wrongly.



Water 151g
Lye 101g
Olive oil 360g
Coconut oil 200g
Grapeseed oil 120g
Pine tar 120g

First I mixed the water and lye. Then I mixed the non-pine tar oils and blended them a bit. Next I added the pine tar to the oils and blended well with a whisk. Then I added the lye water and blended until it felt medium thick. However, when I poured it, about two thirds poured fairly well, but about a third was a bunch of hard chunks, lighter coloured than the rest of the mix. I plopped the hard chunks into the mold and mixed it into the rest as best I could. It does not seem to have mixed well since I'm pretty sure the gunk is what is visible in the finished soap.

I think what happened is the coconut oil solidified too fast and is separated from the other oils? But I'm not positive. And I'm not sure if the soap is okay to use. Any advice? Thanks.

 

[KimW]

Oh no! @Peachy Clean Soap has some experience with pine tar soaping and she's on the US West Coast, so perhaps she'll be able to chime in tonight.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

Oh no! @Peachy Clean Soap has some experience with pine tar soaping and she's on the US West Coast, so perhaps she'll be able to chime in tonight.

@luvbentley thats most unfortunate, pine tar soap can accelerate really fast you got to be ready to mix and pour ASAP.

Update: This is CP? I think your recipe is a bit off. thats a lot of olive oil' If it were me I would of up my C-Oil add another fat like Tallow or Lard to bring up the hardness, or decrease the olive oil.

You may not of incorporated the lye & fats completely? It sounds like you mixed the oils & PT together really well' so I'm thinking the lye wasn't incorporated completely & it accelerated. Or your lye & water wasn't mixed completely before adding it to the oils?.
I hope someone can jump in and give further advise.

Also if you go to classicbells.com you will find instructions on making Pine Tar Soap' this is where I learned. its @DeeAnna website. Also if you search Pine Tar Soap in the upper right corner "search window" you'll find a lot on the subject too.

 

[luvbentley]

Those are the oils I've been able to get ahold of... I do have sunflower oil as well but I read on a site somewhere that it goes rancid quickly so I left it out. I don't want to use animal fats, and I've been looking for palm oil everywhere but it cannot be found.

The difficult thing is I was paying a lot of attention to the thickness of the batter, and it was easily stirring and moving very well. I was uncomfortable with not machine blending it and I even thought I might be pouring it a bit too early and should stir longer until it started feeling tougher to stir. Then I poured it and saw all the hard gunk at the bottom, I was completely shocked that I couldn't feel it with the whisk at all, and because I could not feel that so much had hardened even as I stirred it easily, I feel concerned about making it again and having the exact same issue because I can't tell when to stop stirring it by feel alone, so I will either overstir again, or maybe even not stir it enough out of worry :[

 

[ResolvableOwl]

(Disclaimer first: I've never made tar soap by myself, just read up a bit about recipes with tar and rosin some time ago)

I'd wildly guess that the “separation” has to do something with the tar. It contains free acids that combine with lye very quickly (faster than any oil saponification), and solidify. Depending on the temperature, this can lead to surprising results, considering you cannot really see what's going on inside the batter).
It might well be that this is only a cosmetic issue (heterogeneous distribution of constituents). Give it a day or two, and perform separate zap tests on the light brown blobs, and the blackish matrix. If they're negative, it's good-to-go soap! If one is zappy, or you just don't want to embrace the unexpected, grate up the bars and rebatch them to mix everything together again.

I do have sunflower oil as well but I read on a site somewhere that it goes rancid quickly

This is true (at least for high-linoleic sunflower oil), but it applies to a similar extent to grapeseed oil as well! And in a dark odorous soap, you can't detect rancidity easily.
Hard oils (non-coconut) are not the easiest to come by/locate in a supermarket, but worth it! Vegetable shortening/frying fat is often based on palm oil (though with oil blends, saponification value can be troublesome). Soy wax (candles) is popular among soapmakers for good reasons. Recently, supermarkets have started selling cocoa and shea butter.

 

[Peachy Clean Soap]

(Disclaimer first: I've never made tar soap by myself, just read up a bit about recipes with tar and rosin some time ago)

I'd wildly guess that the “separation” has to do something with the tar. It contains free acids that combine with lye very quickly (faster than any oil saponification), and solidify. Depending on the temperature, this can lead to surprising results, considering you cannot really see what's going on inside the batter).
It might well be that this is only a cosmetic issue (heterogeneous distribution of constituents). Give it a day or two, and perform separate zap tests on the light brown blobs, and the blackish matrix. If they're negative, it's good-to-go soap! If one is zappy, or you just don't want to embrace the unexpected, grate up the bars and rebatch them to mix everything together again.


This is true (at least for high-linoleic sunflower oil), but it applies to a similar extent to grapeseed oil as well! And in a dark odorous soap, you can't detect rancidity easily.
Hard oils (non-coconut) are not the easiest to come by/locate in a supermarket, but worth it! Vegetable shortening/frying fat is often based on palm oil (though with oil blends, saponification value can be troublesome). Soy wax (candles) is popular among soapmakers for good reasons. Recently, supermarkets have started selling cocoa and shea butter.

Right I know exactly what your talking about. This pt is tricky' yah gotta mix real fast the minuet you see it thicken the lease little bit pour it in the mold, cause from the time you see it thicken just ever so slightly' it will turn to a thick mess is "nano-seconds'. Timing Is Key.

 

[DeeAnna]

If you don't get the fats and lye mixed well enough, pine tar soap can get this kind of mottled rusty look. When I see this in my pine tar soap, it's only a minor part of the bar, however, and I consider it a fault. Your soap looks considerably more mottled and variable in texture than mine has ever been.

Since this is only your third batch, I'd say you should look at this batch as a learning experience, toss it, and try again when you have a bit more soap making experience under your belt. I guess you could rebatch it if you just can't bear the idea of letting go and moving on, but that's up to you. What I wouldn't advise is keeping the soap as-is.

The recipe you're using is going to be soft and highly soluble, so it won't last long in the bath. You might want to adjust the other fats to make a less soluble soap. Then with the 15% pine tar (I use 10%) you are choosing to use and a decent amount of cure time, your soap will hopefully have a reasonable life in the bath.

Also at 800 grams total fats (including pine tar), you're making awfully large batches as a beginner. Even as an experienced soap maker, I don't make batches that big when testing new methods or unusual ingredients (like pine tar).

As Peachy Clean mentioned, I have suggestions for making pine tar soap on my website that you might find helpful for next time -- Pine tar soap | Soapy Stuff

 

[tyerod]

I have done a few batches of pine tar soap. They always go real fast once the pine tar is added. The first time I was using a 2lb 3" PVC pipe mold and was scooping glops of batter in at the end. I built a 2lb slab mold after that and make sure everything is ready before starting. I have not seen separation like this before so I am interested in hearing how it comes out and what you do with it.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm not sure if the soap is okay to use. Any advice? Thanks.

I see a rebatch in your near future.

Grate the soap up as soon as it's hard enough and doesn't stick to the grater. To spare my knuckles, I use a Presto Salad Shooter. A food processor works well too. You don't need to add any water.

 

[luvbentley]

Guys, thanks for you all your responses. As someone suggested I ended up doing the zap test (I had never heard of that before, had to look it up!) I didn't feel any zap, although I didn't really know what to feel for. I had added salt to the lye water, and I tasted the saltiness quite strongly, and depending on what this zap feels like, its possible that the bitter saltiness plus the truly appalling taste of the pine tar masked it. But since I felt nothing I decided to give a bar a lather and use it, and actually I've used it many times already and its a great bar of soap.

On the other hand, I think I now know what to feel for in a zap test, because I made a batch of orange zest soap today and some sprayed on my lip while blending it. I wiped it off with kleenex but must have missed a tiny speck, because I licked my lip a bit later and it felt like my tongue got stabbed with a needle.

 

[Catscankim]

I followed one of @DeeAnna recipes on her site and it came out perfect. First and only pine tar soap i ever made.

I am the type of person that needs to read read read.....then do it. When she says to get ready for the rodeo, she means it. Go quick and pour as soon as you can.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...my tongue got stabbed with a needle ..."

Yeah, that's about right for a zap. Welcome to the club!

My rule of thumb -- if I'm questioning whether I got a zap or not, it's not a zap.

 

[debrajean]

Hi guys. I have done three soaps so far, a plain castile soap, a coffee soap, but my third, a pine tar soap, has turned out wrongly.



Water 151g
Lye 101g
Olive oil 360g
Coconut oil 200g
Grapeseed oil 120g
Pine tar 120g

First I mixed the water and lye. Then I mixed the non-pine tar oils and blended them a bit. Next I added the pine tar to the oils and blended well with a whisk. Then I added the lye water and blended until it felt medium thick. However, when I poured it, about two thirds poured fairly well, but about a third was a bunch of hard chunks, lighter coloured than the rest of the mix. I plopped the hard chunks into the mold and mixed it into the rest as best I could. It does not seem to have mixed well since I'm pretty sure the gunk is what is visible in the finished soap.

I think what happened is the coconut oil solidified too fast and is separated from the other oils? But I'm not positive. And I'm not sure if the soap is okay to use. Any advice? Thanks.

You are on the low end of hardness and your iodine count is pretty high you will want to lower that. I would increase the olive oil, decrease the coconut oil, lower the grapeseed oil by 2/3 and maybe add some cocoa butter. I find the perfect temp for your pine tar/oil mix is 104 degrees. After you add your water/lye, mix by hand with a whisk, as soon as you see a LIGHT trace, mix 7-8 more times, then pour fast into your molds. You are not looking for a thick like pudding here, you want to catch it right before that. I have learned that after you see the Light trace, it goes south, Fast.

 

[Michelle0803]

When I make my pine tar I add the pine tar AFTER I have mixed my oils and lye water. This has helped me guarantee that my oils and lye are mixed well. I have learned that things move very quickly once you add the pine tar.

 

[DeeAnna]

Considering this discussion started about 2 years ago, I'd say the original poster has moved on from this batch a long time ago.

Problem with adding pure pine tar to soap batter is there's a good chance that someday you won't get enough time to thoroughly mix the PT into the soap batter. The result is pockets or veins of gooey pine tar throughout the soap.

I've had more consistent results when I add the PT to about half of the fats and mix well, and set that mixture aside for a moment. Mixing PP with some of the fat reduces the viscosity of the pine tar.

I add lye solution to the other half of the fats and bring this plain soap batter to a light trace using a stick blender. That ensures the lye solution is properly emulsified with the fats.

I then mix the fat-and-PT mixture into the emulsified soap batter, stirring by hand. Since the two mixtures have about the same viscosity, they mix together easily. This method has worked well for me.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hey @debrajean in Indiana! Welcome to the Forum!

Considering this discussion started about 2 years ago, I'd say the original poster has moved on from this batch a long time ago.

As @DeeAnna mentioned, this is an old thread. When browsing the forum threads it's best to check the date of the post located above the avatar on the post you are responding to.

From your response, you sound like a knowledgeable soapmaker.

HAPPY SOAPING!