pH?

[IrishLass]

For what it's worth, I do CP and it's very rare that I ever get ash. On the rare occasion that I do get it, it's such a scant/light dusting that it comes right off with a swipe of a damp cloth. I attribute that to the water amount that I use (a 33% lye concentration) and making sure my soap goes fully through the gel stage....and also keeping my soap covered up until it completely cools down.


IrishLass

 

[jcandleattic]

Don't we SF so that lye soaps are as NON DRYING, and NON IRRITATING, as possible? Not sure that I would want to use a LYE HEAVY soap, but
that's just me.

NO, that’s not why we superfat. I don’t understand all the use of the caps, but as @amd pointed out, this is starting to feel more like a troll post than anything. There is no sure fire way to avoid soda ash. Having a low pH has nothing to do with it. All you really have to do if you want answers about soda ash isdo a search. Plenty of topics about it here on the forum.

 

[n6561echo]

For what it's worth, I do CP and it's very rare that I ever get ash. On the rare occasion that I do get it, it's such a scant/light dusting that it comes right off with a swipe of a damp cloth. I attribute that to the water amount that I use (a 33% lye concentration) and making sure my soap goes fully through the gel stage....and also keeping my soap covered up until it completely cools down.


IrishLass

Thanks for your input. I'm wondering, if what I'm dealing with IS actually soda ash, or something else. It's white, a slightly sticky. clay like coating, covering the entire top surface of my test bars, which are poured at a light/medium trace, into a(6up 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" cavities) silicone mold. Not only is it difficult to wash off, but it's even difficult to scrape off, because of how sticky it is. I at 90-120, pour my molds, leave them uncovered to cool, so I don't believe they ever go thru a gel phase. I haven't tried "oven" processing yet. I'm thinking 140-170 for 45 minutes, and then off. What say you about this?? Thanks

NO, that’s not why we superfat. I don’t understand all the use of the caps, but as @amd pointed out, this is starting to feel more like a troll post than anything. There is no sure fire way to avoid soda ash. Having a low pH has nothing to do with it. All you really have to do if you want answers about soda ash isdo a search. Plenty of topics about it here on the forum.

I was under the impression that SF is done, primarily, to account for variances in SAP values that can differ from lot to lot.ls, thus avoiding the possibility of free/unreacted lye remaining in the soap. Whether using a lye discount before trace, of adding additional oil after trace, the goal is still them same, to avoid free/unreacted lye. Am I wrong on this issue?? If soda ash "is" a reaction between unreacted lye, and atmospheric CO2' then we should be able to adjust some part of the formula/chemistry. Shouldn't we??

Could also be, that what I'm dealing with is not soda ash, but something different. A thick, white, slightly sticky, clay like material that's difficult to even scrape off in some instances.

 

[cmzaha]

Don't we SF so that lye soaps are as NON DRYING, and NON IRRITATING, as possible? Not sure that I would want to use a LYE HEAVY soap, but
that's just me.

You do not have to superfat to make a gentle non-drying soap. You just need a good balance of your fatty acid profile. Many of us here may not be chemists but we make very good soap.

A very thick layer of soda ash can be difficult to remove. I have always ungelled soap to be more prone to very thick ash

 

[Rsapienza]

I was under the impression that SF is done, primarily, to account for variances in SAP values that can differ from lot to lot.ls, thus avoiding the
possibility of free/unreacted lye remaining in the soap. Whether using a lye discount before trace, of adding additional oil after trace, the goal
is still them same, to avoid free/unreacted lye. Am I wrong on this issue?? If soda ash "is" a reaction between unreacted lye, and atmospheric
CO2' then we should be able to adjust some part of the formula/chemistry. Shouldn't we??

Could also be, that what I'm dealing with is not soda ash, but something different. A thick, white, slightly sticky, clay like material that's difficult
to even scrape off in some instances.

I'm certainly not an expert in soap or chemistry, but for what it's worth, I find that soaping with a significant water discount prevents soda ash in my recipes. I have never found soda ash to be sticky. I have experienced the thick, harder to remove ash, but again, it's never been sticky. I think sometimes soap defies science and does what it wants. LOL

 

[n6561echo]

You do not have to superfat to make a gentle non-drying soap. You just need a good balance of your fatty acid profile. Many of us here may not be chemists but we make very good soap.

A very thick layer of soda ash can be difficult to remove. I have always ungelled soap to be more prone to very thick ash

Thanks cmzaha, your point is well taken. There are way too many soapers making great soap, and soap making videos, which suggests that it may not be the chemistry, but the process. Given that "soda ash" is not even included in the index of most of the books written by acknowledged soap gurus, or mentioned in any of the videos (U Tube) I've watched, also suggests that it's process, rather than chemistry.

I may be stubborn, but I'm not HARDHEADED! Ooops, sorry about the caps. Thanks to all of you responders for your input and patience. It's apparent that I need to pay more attention to all of the subtle elements in the seemingly simple process. (But I'd still like to know why
this happens to a greater degree with formulas high in OO, or with low sat:unsat rartios (i.e. 34:66). Sorry, just the chemist in me.

Thanks again, every one.

I'm certainly not an expert in soap or chemistry, but for what it's worth, I find that soaping with a significant water discount prevents soda ash in my recipes. I have never found soda ash to be sticky. I have experienced the thick, harder to remove ash, but again, it's never been sticky. I think sometimes soap defies science and does what it wants. LOL

There are a lot of reasons why that makes sense, and it's among the formula changes that I plan to include, first thing in the morning What do you consider a "significant" discount? Do you use SoapCalc, and enter it via "lye concentration?" I was thinking of trying 35% and 40%.

Thanks again for you input. Paul

 

[Rsapienza]

There are a lot of reasons why that makes sense, and it's among the formula changes that I plan to include, first thing in the morning What do
you consider a "significant" discount? Do you use SoapCalc, and enter it via "lye concentration?" I was thinking of trying 35% and 40%.

Thanks again for you input. Paul

Yes, I do lye concentration at 38%.

There are a lot of reasons why that makes sense, and it's among the formula changes that I plan to include, first thing in the morning What do
you consider a "significant" discount? Do you use SoapCalc, and enter it via "lye concentration?" I was thinking of trying 35% and 40%.

Thanks again for you input. Paul

Also, have you tried soapmakingfriend for a lye calculator? It has many more "bells and whistles". I love it!!

 

[n6561echo]

Also, have you tried soapmakingfriend for a lye calculator? It has many more "bells and whistles". I love it!!

I love your suggestion. There's no such thing as to much information, it's just knowing what to do with it!
Thanks again for your time and information. Looking forward to getting started in the morning. Looks like you're a night owl also. Paul

 

[moodymama]

Actually, I'm more interested in PREVENTING SODA ASH. If it is, in fact the reaction of unreacted lye with the CO2 in the air
(Na + CO2= Na2CO3), then there must be an EXCESS of lye in the batter. It seems like adjusting the chemistry (PREVENTING IT) would be a
better plan. Reducing the alkalinity (dryness, and irritability) as much as possible, is my goal.

I was actually looking for a way to create soda ash. (I was asked if I can make soda soap, so I went looking and found that you can't use baking soda in CP. My next guess was to create a soap with a good amount of soda ash. If anyone was wondering.) Post #9 was interesting to me. I ran across this web page. https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-and-how-does-soda-ash-appear-while-soap-is-curing.363781/

 

[n6561echo]

I was actually looking for a way to create soda ash. (I was asked if I can make soda soap, so I went looking and found that you can't use baking soda in CP. My next guess was to create a soap with a good amount of soda ash. If anyone was wondering.) Post #9 was interesting to me. I ran across this web page. https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-and-how-does-soda-ash-appear-while-soap-is-curing.363781/

Thanks moodymama. This website (and it's endless links) has the best, and most useful, information on soaping issues, that I've seen online. It appears that WATER is a bigger nemesis than many soapers realize, and that the greater the amount of mono and polyunsaturated oils; the greater the need for an anti-oxidant, like vitamin E. Really useful stuff on this website, especially for CP soapers.

... and now you're just trolling to start arguments.


But I will answer your question. Making a soap intentionally lye heavy means there is more base (lye) than acid (oils) in the acid+base=salt formula that we know creates soap. Thus there are no extra oils in the soap left to become rancid.

Your rational makes sense. However, the fatty acid chains, with their associated double and triple bonds (where oxidation/rancidity occur) are still present. That's why anti-oxidants should be added to formulas high in mono and poly unsaturates.

 

[DeeAnna]

Saturated fats also will oxidize and eventually become rancid. The rate is typically slower than unsaturated fats, but it still happens.

The triglycerides commonly found in soap do not have triple carbon bonds. Only single and double bonds.

This is the second time I've clarified some basics of soap chemistry for you. You may impress some with your pseudo-scientific jargon, but you're losing credibility fast with the experienced soap makers and the scientists/engineers.

And on a related note, clarify why you believe Vitamin E is an acceptable antioxidant for the specific purpose of preventing oxidation and rancidity of fats and soap.

 

[n6561echo]

Saturated fats also will oxidize and eventually become rancid. The rate is typically slower than unsaturated fats, but it still happens.

The triglycerides commonly found in soap do not have triple carbon bonds. Only single and double bonds.

This is the second time I've clarified some basics of soap chemistry for you. You may impress some with your pseudo-scientific jargon, but you're losing credibility fast with the experienced soap makers and the scientists/engineers.

And on a related note, clarify why you believe Vitamin E is an acceptable antioxidant for the specific purpose of preventing oxidation and rancidity of fats and soap.

1st "tri"glycerides (acylglyerols) are composed of a 3 carbon, glycerol backbone ( having 3 functional groups (OH) that can be "esterified"with 1,2,or 3 fatty acids forming mono, di, or tri glycerides, via these "ester" bonds. As you probably know, soaps are formed from the reaction of glycerides with NaOH, the products of which are glycerol (later converted to glycerine), and salts of fatty acids. SO, your statement that "triglycerides" found in soaps have only single/double bond is somewhat misstated. It is the unsaturated (missing some carbon atoms) fatty acids that contain the single, double, triple bonds. You are correct, however, most of the fatty acids that soapers are concerned with have only single and double bonds.
This brings us to issue #2. When these bonds are broken, two things happen. 1. Many of the shorter chain fatty acids are responsible for nasty odors, make food unpalatable, become toxins, etc. and 2. generate reactive oxygen (oxidative) radicals. Oxygen radicals provide a double whammy, they can also break these bonds, and are extremely destructive throughout the body. [UV radiation (the sun) damages the fatty tissues in the skin, generating free radicals, which, in turn, cause the redness/inflammation that we call "sunburn."] Sorry, I digress. However, I will state that taking superoxide dismutase (a free radical scavenger), before going out in the sun, WILL prevent sunburn. The point is that the function of "ANTI" oxidents , is to inhibit, or neutralize these radicals. Since these "oxidative" free radicals are a major source of rancidity, it makes sense to inhibit/neutralize them with antioxidants. Look on most food labels and you see antioxidants. Producers are most concerned with products that contain fatty acids, such as nuts, seeds, and grains. It's the free radical oxidation (rancidity) they're trying to prevent, or reduce.
As for Vitamin E, it's probably the most used antioxidant in the food and cosmetic industry. Beta-carotene is even more potent, but has some obvious drawbacks. Free radical scavengers are also widely used industry.

Hope this helps. I tried to be brief, but that's a term that's not often used when discussing organic chemistry.

1st "tri"glycerides (acylglyerols) are composed of a 3 carbon, glycerol backbone ( having 3 functional groups (OH) that can be "esterified"with 1,2,or 3 fatty acids forming mono, di, or tri glycerides, via these "ester" bonds. As you probably know, soaps are formed from the reaction of glycerides with NaOH, the products of which are glycerol (later converted to glycerine), and salts of fatty acids. SO, your statement that "triglycerides" found in
soaps have only single/double bond is somewhat misstated. It is the unsaturated (missing some carbon atoms) fatty acids that contain the single,
double, triple bonds. You are correct, however, most of the fatty acids that soapers are concerned with have only single and double bonds.
This brings us to issue #2. When these bonds are broken, two things happen. 1. Many of the shorter chain fatty acids are responsible for nasty
odors, make food unpalatable, become toxins, etc. and 2. generate reactive oxygen (oxidative) radicals. Oxygen radicals provide a double whammy,
they can also break these bonds, and are extremely destructive throughout the body. [UV radiation (the sun) damages the fatty tissues in the skin, generating free radicals, which, in turn, cause the redness/inflammation that we call "sunburn."] Sorry, I digress. However, I will state that taking
superoxide dismutase (a free radical scavenger), before going out in the sun, WILL prevent sunburn. The point is that the function of "ANTI" oxidents , is to inhibit, or neutralize these radicals. Since these "oxidative" free radicals are a major source of rancidity, it makes sense to
inhibit/neutralize them with antioxidants. Look on most food labels and you see antioxidants. Producers are most concerned with products that
contain fatty acids, such as nuts, seeds, and grains. It's the free radical oxidation (rancidity) they're trying to prevent, or reduce.
As for Vitamin E, it's probably the most used antioxidant in the food and cosmetic industry. Beta-carotene is even more potent, but has some
obvious drawbacks. Free radical scavengers are also widely used industry.

Hope this helps. I tried to be brief, but that's a term that's not often used when discussing organic chemistry.

I forgot to mention that Bramble berry puts vitamin E in all of their Quick Mix oils, for that reason. Many soapers, and suppliers, also suggest
adding vitamin E in there base oil to prolong their shelf life.

 

[atiz]

This may not be very helpful, but the only time I have gotten serious soda ash was when I used individual silicone molds (with no gel). You said above that that's what you also use; maybe try using a loaf mold? TBH I have not done enough testing on this so it is just anecdotal evidence, but I have heard others experiencing it too.

(Re Vitamin E, as I understand it, the consensus seems to be that it's one thing for something to act as an antioxidant in oils on their own, and it's another thing for it to act as an antioxidant in a high alkaline environment. Vitamin E does the former well, the latter not very well if at all.)

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Sorry, I digress.... Hope this helps...."

Yes, you did, and no it doesn't.

Yet another flood of pseudo-scientific jargon designed to overwhelm and impress.

 

[Arimara]

"...Sorry, I digress.... Hope this helps...."

Yes, you did, and no it doesn't.

Yet another flood of pseudo-scientific jargon designed to overwhelm and impress.

I'm an (lightly) opinionated college dropout that is nowhere near naive enough be overwhelmed/impressed by much of the self-indulgent jargon that was thrown out. To be honest, I mostly didn't engage because this thread is less about the issue the OP posted and more about showing off how "knowledgeable" they are. The tone set has been mostly argumentative with strong passive aggressive undertones, even when certain issues were sufficiently addressed.

So in light of that, thank you for chiming in. I'm afraid I lack the decorum to have responded without losing my religion, so to speak.

 

[n6561echo]

This may not be very helpful, but the only time I have gotten serious soda ash was when I used individual silicone molds (with no gel). You said above that that's what you also use; maybe try using a loaf mold? TBH I have not done enough testing on this so it is just anecdotal evidence, but I have heard others experiencing it too.

(Re Vitamin E, as I understand it, the consensus seems to be that it's one thing for something to act as an antioxidant in oils on their own, and it's another thing for it to act as an antioxidant in a high alkaline environment. Vitamin E does the former well, the latter not very well if at all.)

Hi Atiz, Thank you for the great response. Anecdotal evidence is where research starts. The questions are "why did it occur," under what circum-stances, and does it always occur, and to the same degree. So the question is why does it occur in small, open face molds, not always in loaf molds, and as I understand, from HP soap makers, NEVER in HP soaps. That certainly suggests that temperature might be a factor. Another factors seems to be the amount of water in the batter. Less water, less ash. The explanation, by some researchers, has to due with the "density" of the soap. The last ex-planation has to do with the reaction of free lye with the CO2 in the air. I'm currently doing some fun experiments, which require putting freshly made soap (known to get heavy layers of (?) on the surface) into my vacuum chamber where there is NO air. If the same "goo" appears we know it's not from the CO2 in the air! Ah, one variable eliminated. However, I really do need to solve the problem, so that I can use the unique molds I have. For anyone else out there, think about using you kitchen, vacuum food sealer. Put your loaf in a bag, pull a vacuum, and then follow you normal gelling routine. Heat, and no oxygen. What more could you ask for??
As for your concerns about the scavenging ability of vitamin E, in an alkaline environment, I have absolutely no idea. Not an issue in the human re-search, and clinical settings, I've been involved with. However, by this time tomorrow, I'll know a lot more. Thanks for the challenge.

I'm an (lightly) opinionated college dropout that is nowhere near naive enough be overwhelmed/impressed by much of the self-indulgent jargon that was thrown out. To be honest, I mostly didn't engage because this thread is less about the issue the OP posted and more about showing off how "knowledgeable" they are. The tone set has been mostly argumentative with strong passive aggressive undertones, even when certain issues were sufficiently addressed.

So in light of that, thank you for chiming in. I'm afraid I lack the decorum to have responded without losing my religion, so to speak.

As for pseudo-science, I NEVER say anything I can't back up with documentation from academia, or the peer review, scientific literature. And, as for trying to impress anyone, I have a masters in biology, a Ph.D. in neurosciences, 15 years of medical research including NASA (Johnson Space Center) during the Gemini & early Apollo programs. M.D.Anderson Cancer Institute (Dept. of Anesthesia and Experimental Surgery), research positions at the Baylor college of medicine, the Texas Research Institute for Metal Sciences, and Texas Institute for Rehabilitation and Research,
among others.. I certainly don't need to try and impress a college dropout! My accomplishments speak for themselves, and are appreciated by those who recognize their there value.
Sorry, organic chem 101 was over your head. I answered your questions as simply as possible. As for passive-aggressive, let me say, you may be a great soapmaker, but your responses show only a marginal understanding of the details, as well as, a great deal of jealousy, insecurity, and the need
for self-validation. And, yes, I have the credentials to make those assessments. I hope that wasn't too passive for you.
I you want to continue to embarrass yourself, please feel free. However, I may not be able to get back to you right away.
Much success with you soap.

I'm an (lightly) opinionated college dropout that is nowhere near naive enough be overwhelmed/impressed by much of the self-indulgent jargon that was thrown out. To be honest, I mostly didn't engage because this thread is less about the issue the OP posted and more about showing off how "knowledgeable" they are. The tone set has been mostly argumentative with strong passive aggressive undertones, even when certain issues were sufficiently addressed.

So in light of that, thank you for chiming in. I'm afraid I lack the decorum to have responded without losing my religion, so to speak.

I'm an (lightly) opinionated college dropout that is nowhere near naive enough be overwhelmed/impressed by much of the self-indulgent jargon that was thrown out. To be honest, I mostly didn't engage because this thread is less about the issue the OP posted and more about showing off how "knowledgeable" they are. The tone set has been mostly argumentative with strong passive aggressive undertones, even when certain issues were sufficiently addressed.

So in light of that, thank you for chiming in. I'm afraid I lack the decorum to have responded without losing my religion, so to speak.

If you want to see my response, you'll have to go to #44. Lightning is not beneficial to computers!

"...Sorry, I digress.... Hope this helps...."

Yes, you did, and no it doesn't.

Yet another flood of pseudo-scientific jargon designed to overwhelm and impress.

Sorry you can't make the associations.

 

[cmzaha]

Guess all the degrees are supposed to impress. But guess what, a soapmaker the degrees do not make. So I am not too impressed. There are many degreed folks in this world, and they do not feel they have to brag about them.

As for pseudo-science, I NEVER say anything I can't back up with documentation from academia, or the peer review, scientific literature. And, as
for trying to impress anyone, I have a masters in biology, a Ph.D. in neurosciences, 15 years of medical research including NASA (Johnson Space Center) during the Gemini & early Apollo programs. M.D.Anderson Cancer Institute (Dept. of Anesthesia and Experimental Surgery), research positions at the Baylor college of medicine, the Texas Research Institute for Metal Sciences, and Texas Institute for Rehabilitation and Research,
among others.. I certainly don't need to try and impress a college dropout! My accomplishments speak for themselves, and are appreciated by those who recognize their there value.
Sorry, organic chem 101 was over your head. I answered your questions as simply as possible. As for passive-aggressive, let me say, you may be a
great soapmaker, but your responses show only a marginal understanding of the details, as well as, a great deal of jealousy, insecurity, and the need
for self-validation. And, yes, I have the credentials to make those assessments. I hope that wasn't too passive for you.

I you want to continue to embarrass yourself, please feel free. However, I may not be able to get back to you right away.

Much success with you soap.

 

[n6561echo]

Guess all the degrees are supposed to impress. But guess what, a soapmaker the degrees do not make. So I am not too impressed. There are many degreed folks in this world, and they do not feel they have to brag about them.

I rest my case. A predictable response!

 

[Rsapienza]

As for pseudo-science, I NEVER say anything I can't back up with documentation from academia, or the peer review, scientific literature. And, as
for trying to impress anyone, I have a masters in biology, a Ph.D. in neurosciences, 15 years of medical research including NASA (Johnson Space Center) during the Gemini & early Apollo programs. M.D.Anderson Cancer Institute (Dept. of Anesthesia and Experimental Surgery), research positions at the Baylor college of medicine, the Texas Research Institute for Metal Sciences, and Texas Institute for Rehabilitation and Research,
among others.. I certainly don't need to try and impress a college dropout! My accomplishments speak for themselves, and are appreciated by those who recognize their there value.
Sorry, organic chem 101 was over your head. I answered your questions as simply as possible. As for passive-aggressive, let me say, you may be a
great soapmaker, but your responses show only a marginal understanding of the details, as well as, a great deal of jealousy, insecurity, and the need
for self-validation. And, yes, I have the credentials to make those assessments. I hope that wasn't too passive for you.

I you want to continue to embarrass yourself, please feel free. However, I may not be able to get back to you right away.

Much success with you soap.

This was totally rude and unnecessary. I don't think anyone here is impressed by your little rant. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you are just behaving like a total ass!

 

[n6561echo]

This was totally rude and unnecessary. I don't think anyone here is impressed by your little rant. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you are just behaving like a total ass!

Your opinion is noted.

This was totally rude and unnecessary. I don't think anyone here is impressed by your little rant. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you are just behaving like a total ass!

Sorry, I forgot to ask, Benefit about what??