Palmitic/Stearic Values

[dippy]

I read a really good thread where DeeAnna said aim for 30 or a little higher for stearic+palmitic. I am struggling to reach this figure and most of my recipes seem to be coming out at between 20 to 25.

I am trying to formulate a palm free and tallow/lard free recipe. I know some use beeswax or soywax but I would like to see if I can find an acceptable recipe without them first. It seems the only way is to up my butters but I had read someone say you shouldn't really go over 30% for all butters combined for a balanced bar. Do any soapers go over this for their regular everyday recipe? I saw Cmzaha does a 57% shea face bar which I intend to try but what about regular body/hand bars that last reasonably well?

 

[DeeAnna]

When I first started to make soap, I asked my soaper friend Renae to give me her honest feedback. If you know Renae, you'd know that she has no problem giving honest feedback.

Anyways, she said she liked my soap in general, but it didn't last long enough. Those first recipes were around 20-25% palmitic + stearic.

I made a concerted effort to develop recipes that lasted longer after that feedback, and Renae thinks I've succeeded. My current recipes have 28-30% palmitic + stearic.

I think you can go overboard when trying to change any one particular group of fatty acids. When raising the palmitic + stearic to increase physical hardness and add longevity, the downside is reduced lather. That's why I don't try to go any much higher than 30%-ish -- that's my happy medium where my soap is hard enough, lasts long enough, but still lathers nicely.

 

[dippy]

Thanks so much DeeAnna! I have tinkered with it a bit and have got it up to 26% palmitic + stearic but that's with 25% shea and 10% cocoa butter. I am not sure if that is going to be too much Shea though.

 

[DeeAnna]

I made a few recipes in the early days with shea and/or cocoa butter mainly because the recipes Renae gave me to get me started had these butters. I don't use any butters in my soap nowadays, however, so don't have an opinion on what's a good % to use for a typical bath soap.

 

[dippy]

I will do a small test batch and see. I have managed to get my palmitic+stearic up to acceptable levels now by switching some of the oils so I think its worth testing this one.

I have learned so much searching the forum and reading old posts from you DeeAnna and others. I am very grateful you all share your wisdom so generously.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I'm soaping at 36 palmitic/stearic, and my lather is good. Mind you I do use aloe or coconut milk/oat milk in every batch. Some of my liquid oils are quite high in palmitic - namely OO, avocado and RBO ( those three alone total 45% of my recipe) so that helps the cause. I also use soy wax at 20% and Shea Butter at 10%. I've had people comment on how long they last.

 

[dippy]

KiwiMoose does soy wax add longevity or just hardness? As I can get shea butter for the same price so was just going to put more shea in. Wondering if I need to look at trying soy wax.

Also does RBO shorten the shelf life of the soap? I know you should keep below 15 Linoleic/Linolenic to prevent DOS but do soaps with RBO go off sooner?

I have just answered my own question KiwiMoose as I saw a post where you say it adds longevity and hardness! So I have a different question for you and anyone else who uses soy wax. If shea and soy wax were the same price would you still be adding the soy wax? I don't want to get another product if its not going to add anything.

I was intending on adding around 25% shea butter, 10% cocoa butter, 15% coconut oil and the rest soft oils.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I have just answered my own question KiwiMoose as I saw a post where you say it adds longevity and hardness! So I have a different question for you and anyone else who uses soy wax. If shea and soy wax were the same price would you still be adding the soy wax? I don't want to get another product if its not going to add anything.

I was intending on adding around 25% shea butter, 10% cocoa butter, 15% coconut oil and the rest soft oils.

I think soy wax brings a bit more to the table than shea butter (think shave soap/stearic acid/thick stable lather). However I like both so I use both. Soy wax is higher in both stearic and palmitic than shea. Shea has more oleic than SW. So even it they were the same price i would still use the soy wax. I used to use cocoa butter but it is too expensive.
RBO is very cheap here in NZ ( about $US2.80 per litre) so that's a bonus. My total linolenic and linoleic in my recipe is 11, so no fear of being over the dreaded '15'.

 

[dippy]

Thanks KiwiMoose I shall get some soy wax to try so I can see the difference. If I could drop the cocoa butter it would be good as it is very expensive here also.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Thanks KiwiMoose I shall get some soy wax to try so I can see the difference. If I could drop the cocoa butter it would be good as it is very expensive here also.

If you try it I would use about 15%-20% and drop the shea back a bit. Don't soap to cool - keep it about 105 or more.

 

[LunaLe]

Are you guys adding the values of palmitic and stearic or saying that each one should have a value of 30?

 

[DeeAnna]

Adding them together. Palmitic + Stearic => around 30% total

 

[LunaLe]

Adding them together. Palmitic + Stearic => around 30% total

Thanks!

 

[cmzaha]

My 57% shea butter bar is a special facial bar with a min 6 month cure. Although I am actually using one as a hand soap right now and it is lovely.

I am so glad I have no issues using palm for my vegan soap and tallow/lard for my non-vegan so my stearic acid levels are easy to maintain in the 30-34%. If I use shea in my regular soaps I keep it at 10%. Sadly I will probably be discontinuing it after this Covid mess and the Protesting is finished. I doubt my LA suppliers will survive all this.

 

[dippy]

I hope your suppliers get through this cmzaha. There are lots of businesses struggling and I think it will be a very different world the other side of this mess.

I am looking forward to trying your facial bar. 6 months cure sounds such a long time but if I do it now I will have it ready for Christmas.

One question on curing and storage.. when you say 6 months cure is that 6 months on the drying rack or 3 months drying rack and 3 months in a cardboard box or something? If its on the drying rack I think I might need a bigger rack LOL.

Also when you all store the soaps after drying is it best to store them in cardboard boxes or more airtight plastic boxes and should they be wrapped in paper or plastic film before storing. I have heard of people doing both and I am a bit confused about the correct way. I guess I want all excess moisture out but equally I want the EOs to hold as much as possible - what is the right way forward??

 

[shunt2011]

I cure my long term curing soaps on my soap rack for at least 3 months. Afterward I move them to either cardboard baseball card boxes or cardboard raspberry flats I get from our local Costco.