palm oil substitute

[booboo]

Hi,
found this on science daily.com

Palm oil, used in food, cosmetics, biofuels and other products, is now the world's leading vegetable oil. It is derived from the fruit of the oil palm, grown on more than 50,000-square miles of moist, tropical lowland areas, mostly in Malaysia and Indonesia. These areas, once covered in tropical rainforest, the globe's richest wildlife habitat on land, are also home to some of the most threatened species on earth,

So I would like to use something driffent if possible or not at all.

 

[surf girl]

Coconut gives a hard bar with lather, which is what I think much of what palm adds.

I believe Babassu oil is a good replacement, but is pricey? I have never used it, just seem to recall reading about it.

I haven't yet used palm in any soaps, and haven't had any great trouble making bars that are hard and lather well. But then, I can't compare it with the palm.

I'm sure others will chime in.

 

[dagmar88]

:wink: I couldn't do without it really...

 

[MikeInPdx]

Well....you can use lard or tallow if you're not averse to animal products.

If you want to stick with vegetable soap, I would suggest looking for organic sustainable palm.....it is out there.....I believe Columbus Foods organic is from sustainable sources but you will want to check.

That or you can look up some trans fat style shortening.....like Crisco used to be. It makes a nice hard bar and it can be had for cheap. I use the Kroger and the SaveALot brands.

 

[Greenman]

it is more expensive but if you have "moral" issues with Palm

Spectrum says that they are "earth friendly"

http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=87

 

[Deda]

Yep, I get organic Palm oil from Columbus. It is from sustainable sources. I won't make soap without it.

 

[Sonam]

I have been wondering about this too. I saw some called Jungle shortening at the store that claims its sustainable source. I read that in africa it is sustainable. So if you can find the source is it ok? i found some at an Indian Grocery called African Pride. Its difficult to get caught up in this kind of thing. Its in alot of things and we don't even know it let alone where it came from, but its good to at least be aware.

 

[dagmar88]

But what does sustainable resources really mean? You can call every tree you cut & replace a sustainable resource :wink:
Here some facts :wink:
-The rainforest is actually not cut down to plant palmtrees; it's illegaly cut down for it's hardwood. Cutting down rainsforest is way more profitable than harvesting palms. You want to make a difference; don't buy tropical wood.
-To plant palmtrees on the ground that used to be rainforest, helps prevent erosion of the earth.
-It is a sustainable resource; as the palms can all be replaced.
-it could make a sustainable source of biofuel; though if it is any better for the environment is a doubt; at this time it is raising foodprices and hurting the most vulnerable people on this planet, by making it a food-fuel competition.
We might all have to use biofuel when no other solution is found in a couple of years, where running out of fossile fuel.
-Planting palms prevents the natural flora to renew itself & thus destroys the natural habit of many endagered primates & animals
-Biofuel is also produced out of:
canola
mais (the demand of the us actually drove up the price of tortillas in soy mexico wit 400%)
sugar beet
sugar cane
sugarpalm
grane
-the profit of palmtrees is huge compared to other types of agriculture, one acre of palms can replace several acres of canola; which means the canola fields could be replaced by grain.

So you see; it's not just black & white, but a complicated situation.

:roll:

 

[booboo]

Hi,
Thanks for all the help

Its a known fact rainforest is been/has been cut down just to plant palm.
Greenpeace have been putting the pressure on for some time now and things are to change slowly but maybe too late as in most cases.

 

[dagmar88]

and the African savannah is destroyed for the soy production :wink:
oh, and the production of palm oil will more than be doubled by 2020; so I doubt greenpeace made that much difference. Why would the way of producing palm oil change; they have noting to pressure the producers; and the producers will do what makes the largest profit.
The government of Indonesia (very big supplier) is planning to 'clear the rainforest to plant palm tree's' on a huge part of borneo. Governments play a huge deal in topics like this; everything seems to be buyable.

 

[Greenman]

I am sorry Booboo but just because Greenpeace says something does not make it true. I am not trying to cause trouble just point out the truth. You may be right and some rainforest may have been cut for planting palm trees; however the wood was also a factor. You must also realize that if it was not palm it would be another crop. The forest is cut for the wood then the most profitable crop is planted. It is a shame, but it is nut “Palm farmings” fault. Greenpeace tends to decide something is “bad” then chase it to no end. Their hearts are in the right place but they sometimes need to widen their view. Just so you know I do support Greenpeace and have volunteered for a handful of demonstrations and other activities. I speak from experience. Do not believe any one person/groups statement just because they said it.

 

[dagmar88]

true greenman; greenpeace is like a pitbull, once they bite they never let go :wink: good for them though.
What I was trying to say is every group of people, weather it's greenpeace, the governments that let companies cut their rainforests and get payd for it, or the directors of the companies; they all want to justify their actions and they want to be the party that is right. Reality is easily adaped to anyones needs.

 

[Cattleyabubbles]

In that case is Fair Trade really Fair Trade?

 

[Deda]

Sooo, maybe I should just buy the regular palm and save a bunch of money?

 

[dagmar88]

In that case is Fair Trade really Fair Trade?

The principle of trade is unfair :wink: The ones doing the real work get the least. Fair trade means the people who are at the begin of the whole proces; the ones doing physical labour do get a somewhat more decent paycheck. And that's a really good thing as far as I'm concerned.

@Deda, to answer your question, your palm oil could in fact be different from the normal ones; as (certified!!!) organic means that the palm trees are produced with as much as possible natural fertilizer, and unharmful pest control (not 100% though) and (close to) no geneticcaly modifications.

Personally, I'm very, very against those modifications. I'll try to explain.
The genes of the plant/animal are changed to adapt their possibilities.
For example, strawberries don't like it when it freezes. Some fishes can stand very low temperatures without it hurting them.
So some fish genes where put in strawberry plants. Now we have modified strawberry plants that don't mind low temps; more strawberries = more profit.
The same stuff is done on mais, rice, soy, canola, cotton, & beets to make them resistent to some herbicides (or enlarge production). Airplanes fly across the crops field, sprays a massive load down and kills all the herbs between the crops.
After a while the herbs get resistant to & the farmers go and use strong, cheap &harmfull pesticides again.

I do ask myself, how far will those techniques go and how will it influence the earth on the long term. No one knows yet...

So Deda, to make a really long story short; yes, yours does help protect the environment. How much? No idea. Does is make up for the extra expense? Thats up to everyone on their own to decide :wink:

Personally I think were all doing great by producing soap at home and not in mass in a factory. No mather what you use in them. Thereby, if everyone on this forum agreed not to use palm again, how much difference does that make on 8.9 million acres of palm trees?

Really, I'm not a world changer, in these difficult times I'm more concerned about my wallet.
And if I wanted to make a change, why just the 10 kg of palm I use each year. I'd have to stop eating meat (done that for 10 years, turned out not to be my cup of tea after all), cause cattle eats soy & palm. Stop drinking milk. No more cotton clothes, leather shoes, canola oil. stop eating strawberries :cry: use no other lightsourche than candles and buy a horse & carriage. Oh, and before I'd forget, my farts produce an awfull lot of methane too, so no more beans whatsoever
Or we could all give the palm plants back to the rainforest and go live there, in a tree or cave & the hub would go out hunting & I would be at home, collecting wood ashes for making soap and berries and roots to eat

No thanks. The whole western world complains about emissions & 'harmfull for the earth', but in fact WE are harmfull to the earth; there are too many of us, we survive almost all circumstances, we multiply like crazy and we all want comfortable lifes. :wink:

I'm sorry I made this post so long; I deeply respect everyones opinion; and if you want to change the world a little bit by not using palm, I cheer for you !

 

[Maria]

I use palm in my soaps but I do not use genetically modified oils like canola, and soy. I will not support the frankenfood industry.

 

[dagmar88]

Hey Maria,
Don't know about the USA, but in my country there's 'eco' canola for under €5 & soy for under €4 for half a liter. Those are deffinatly not modified if you would like to give them a try :wink:

 

[Maria]

In the US most all corn, soy and canola is genetically modified unless you buy organic. I would love to make an organic product but the cost would be much higher.

 

[beachgurl]

Here's the FDA's definition of "organic"

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/docket ... e-vol1.pdf

I found it rather informative along with their definition of natural.

 

[booboo]

Hi,
Just wanted to clear something up, When I mentioned Greenpeace, I did not mean to imply they made the claim.
I agree with a lot of points that have been made.
It is factual that they are still clearing rainforest just to plant palm,
legally and illegally. Its very easy to justify and rationalize ones actions.
And it is a personal desison on whether to use it or not.
I for one wont, thats my choice,
It is impossible, I know, without living in a cave not to harm the enviroment (and I dont live in a cave).
When people are aware then people have choices.
For me its what my conscience allows me to live with.
Still am interested in good a substiute and I have read that too much coconut is very drying to the skin?