Palm Oil Controversy

[gemini]

Hi Everyone,
I am new here and pretty new to soaping. In my quest to find the best possible ingredients to make soap with, I keep running into formulas and recommendations for really great soap which contain palm oil. I want to make a natural product that is earth friendly. From what I have been reading Palm Oil is really fantastic soap oil but it is really bad for the environment. I read a posting on a soap and candle page today from Tribe Soap that urges consumers to read labels and not to buy hand made soaps that contain palm oil.
So I have some questions: Is there an oil out there that does all the great things palm oil does lather hardness creating a balanced bar? If not then, where can I buy palm oil that is from a sustainable source? One person told me that the palm oil sold at a particular place was "farm raised" I didn't want to get her anymore irritated than she already was but just because it is "farm raised" or even "organic" doesn't mean that it is sustainable. From what I have read the only sustainable source are from West Africa. Does anyone here have more information or further enlightenment for me?
I have been using 100% olive oil and probably will keep doing that but I would like to have a bar that makes a nice bubbly lather. Help!

 

[beachgurl]

You can get organic sustainable palm oil and that's pretty good. Lard and tallow have many of the properties of palm (creaminess and hardness). Just google for sustainable palm and you'll find a source.

 

[Stacykins]

I used red palm oil when I cook birdie bread for my sun conure. I read the label of the red palm oil to make sure I get it from a region where large tracts of forest aren't being clear cut specifically for palm plantations. I don't get the oil if it was produced in Sumatra and Borneo, for example, where orangutans are being severely threatened by clear cutting for palm oil plantations.

I don't know how difficult it is to find out where refined palm oil originates from. I know I can read a label and decide to buy or not. But information can be lost.

 

[gemini]

I just googled it and so far can't find a supplier. There are lots of articles about it. I would love to support the small farmers in West Africa but it I am reading that there are some large farms that are run by the government. Basically the land is commandeered and the workers are paid low wages etc. etc. Unless I can find a place that can sell me stuff that they can PROVE was only grown by the little guys Im gonna have to give up on Palm Oil for now. So onward in my quest for a great soap with no Palm Oil. Tallow and Lard unfortunately are out as well because I am looking to make a vegan soap.
On another note, has anyone seen the movie fight club where Brad Pitt is the evil guy? My BF told me that he was a soapmaker and he made his soap with liposuction fat! YUK! Probably very sustainable though......better than Jenny Craig!

 

[kaseencook]

Coconut oil makes soap harder, along with giving it bigger and frothier bubbles. Additionally you can add the other harder butters and waxes like cocoa butter, mac wax, beeswax, or poss shea butter to increase the hardness as well. You can also add salt to you lye water, and discount your water (27% works well) to increase hardness and decrease drying time. I started out using a higher water content (I think 38%) and it took ages for my soap to dry and when the bars did dry they cracked and warped, and when i used a lower water concentration the soap was drastically firmer. As "soap" is a salt of fat, adding extra Na from (NaCl) will give those broken fat molecules a greater chance of bumping into a Na atom and forming soap, hardening it quicker than just the Na's from the NaOH, although end hardness will be about the same if all fat is saponified.

I work mainly with canola oil, which is soft like olive oil, and I find that a small percentage of coconut oil (less than 10%) along with the salt and discounted water turns out good hard bars. I find though that too much coconut oil can be drying and detract from the very moisturising nature of oils like canola and olive oil.

 

[gemini]

Thanks for that info. One queston what about Dreaded Oil Spots with these combinations?

 

[beachgurl]

Here's organic, fair trade, and sustainable.

http://www.junglepi.com/products/red_palm.html

http://shop.agbangakarite.com/category. ... tegoryId=5

 

[gemini]

Thanks very much for that link. Someone else said soapers choice had sustainable does anyone know if it's true? Their prices seem really low so I am leary. I hate to be so skeptical when it comes to this stuff but I know there is a lot of smoke and mirror stuff going on with this topic.

 

[kaseencook]

DOS, which is caused by oxidation, can be combated with antioxidants.... such natural antioxidants include cinnamon, cloves, cocoa powder, oats/oat flour, and/or teas such as oolong, ceylon, and green tea.

I think Vit E may also prevent some oxiation, but I have not tried this one. The teas and oat flour work the best if you don't want the ingredients to be noticed.... especially oat flour, which also makes the soap look more white and opaque. I use HP method, so oats/oat flour may not work as well with CP, as I believe that part of the function of the oats/oat flour may also be to absorb extra oils and part prevent DOS in that way.

The teas can tint the soap ever so slightly (they are brewed in lye soln) more so green tea than the others, but don't leave a smell. I still have bars that are older than 6 months and no DOS in those which contain the natural antioxidants.

Here is a link for a site that lists ingredients by their antioxidant values:
http://oracvalues.com/sort/orac-value

Here's a pic I took for comparison of some old canola soaps (all HP). 1. oat soap - no DOS 2. oolong tea - no DOS 3. Cinnamon swirled, slight DOS where no cinnamon. 4. cocoa on bottom, plain on top, DOS in plain not in cocoa, no DOS in perimeter between sections (poss leaching of antioxidants from cocoa) 5. Plain canola soap, major DOS :shock:

 

[beachgurl]

You could call Mike and ask him, I honestly don't know.

 

[gemini]

Okay thanks for all the ideas. I use cinnamon a lot already. Love the tea idea. With 100% Olive Oil I haven't had a DOS prolbem. I have never heard of using oat flour how do you mix it in and what are the ratios?

 

[welder]

They're going to slash jungle & plant palm farms no matter what. Sad fact.

BIODIESEL. (I love it by the way, I just don't like slash'n'burn agriculture)

What's needed is a "Fair Trade/Eco-Friendly" international monitoring & approval board to certify giant palm farms & palm wholesalers as to their level of environmental sustainability, that way, at least the inevitable replacement of rainforest with monocultured farms could be buffered somewhat by expecting participating members to adhere to certain codes of conduct like:

1. Avoiding strict monoculture by using companion planting as much as possible.

2. Limiting and/or abstaining from pesticide application & NPK fertiliser as much as is reasonable. This could go hand in hand with companion planting with food bearing nitrogen fixing legumes like various beans etc. The beans would feed local people while adding nitrogen to the palm root systems.

3. Strictly preserving moderate sized conservatories for local plants & animals to remain as untouched as possible. In some African nations the park wardens hoot poachers on sight. Armed tourists and/or tour guides would be acceptable as some jungle predators may like to add human flesh into their diet occassionally, but anyone cought with a panther or rare bird in the trunk of their SUVs would be faced with heavy fines & serious jail time. Tours would be limited somewhat to keep the parks reasonably natural. Part of the park tour fees could be ploughed back into park policing & maintenance fees. At least eco-tourism could be another source of income for local villages.

We vote for business practices with our wallets at every cash register we pay into. Ignorance & apathy are the main weapons big businesses use to continue doing wrong globally. The citizen consumers of this PLANET need to untie as one organism & set reasonable guidelines for preferred busineses to follow. Errant businesses & the nations who turn a blind eye to their crap should be boycotted & publically shamed until they reform their ways. Aparthied fell from public pressure. It can be done.

I don't rub crystals & I don't hug trees, but normal, average people need to demand change or it won't happen. I'd like to believe that one day, my great grandson/daughter might be able to visit untouched rainforest in Brazil. If we do nothing, the basin will be gone completely. Time 4 change!

 

[gemini]

Very well spoken I totally agree. Unfortanately, when I brought this up to fellow soapers I got an extremely negative response. Apparently they have heard from the GreenPeace folks and they view any discussion of the issues as harrassment not enlightenment. I am baffled by the response since a large majority of people who shop for natural soaps are committed to ethics much like ours. I want to use products that are chemical and cruelty free, that support the planet and ALL who live on it.
I just can't turn a blind eye and use products that I know are hurting other people, animals and the planet.

 

[IanT]

I want to use products that are chemical and cruelty free, that support the planet and ALL who live on it.
.

True that...

Thats why I dont use palm oil...

you dont hear anyone complaining about olive plantations (to my knowledge at least...)...

 

[kaseencook]

I agree welder!

I use oven HP and add oats/oat flour after the soap is "cooked". I add about 2-3tab of oat flour per liter of oil and mix really well, if it's an oat soap I also add about 2 tab of rolled oats partly crushed. When you wash with it it's like taking one of those oat baths, makes skin so nice an soothed.

I think it's great that you are investigating better sources or alternatives to Palm oil. I avoid Palm myself. I remember reading an article in national geographic about the palm plantations and seeing the devastation and loss of habitat. As a zoologist this really hit home.

 

[gemini]

So for the oat flour could I just use the processor and grind regular oats up to a powder? I don't think I've ever seen oat flour here in the stores.
Supposedly the red palm oil from West Africa is supposed to be okay. But, I am looking for endorsement from a reliable source before I buy it. I read about West Africa and although there are some natural occurring groves harvested by people who live nearby and some small individually owned palm farms, most of the production is on huge plantations that are run by the government who pays the locals poorly and reaps the profits. Apparently the land was not owned per se by the people there so there was no formal action they could take when the government came in and took over. At least there they are not entirely raping the old growth forests according to the article I read. Someone I had a discussion with told me that the palm oil they bought from a well known supplier was "farm grown" and organic. Hmmph, I didn't bother to try to explain to her that that is the problem the forest are being destroyed and animals are losing their habitats to plant the huge palm farms! Also, I am not buying the organic piece unless I see certification. There are a lot of people out there though, that choose to believe what they are told and don't bother to educate themselves about the ingredients that they are putting into the products they sell. At this point, it is probably just easier not to use it at all.

 

[welder]

Very well spoken I totally agree. Unfortanately, when I brought this up to fellow soapers I got an extremely negative response. Apparently they have heard from the GreenPeace folks and they view any discussion of the issues as harrassment not enlightenment. I am baffled by the response since a large majority of people who shop for natural soaps are committed to ethics much like ours. I want to use products that are chemical and cruelty free, that support the planet and ALL who live on it.
I just can't turn a blind eye and use products that I know are hurting other people, animals and the planet.

Cruelty is a fact of natural life, but as humans, we are the top of the food chain and have the ability to reduce needles suffering to only that which is necessary to sustain ourselves.

I eat meat & wear leather. I also drive a big diesel pickup truck.

I make no apology for either.

Nature is selfish. I have the ability & spiritual responsability to live with a social conscience before my maker & among my peers, so I make no apology for taking my liberties but I also avoid unreasonable or unnecessary harm to others (even animal others).

In my youth, I was a vegetarian for 2 years. It was not about health issues or ecology, it was about protesting the need to kill other sentient beings in order to survive. Eventually, my resolve weakened as I came to the tearfull conclusion that my best efforts to avoid hurting my lunch made virtually no difference whatsoever to the many suffering dinners worldwide. From that point on, I gave in to my omnivorous nature & ate what I wanted (no veal though).

I still resented the bleak reality of existence on this wicked world, but I was too weak to continue the pointlessly inefective personal protest. Wine women and song distracted me from the pain in my heart.

Eventually I had a personal spiritual experience that set my feet on a different path as I sought my creator & a higher meaning that transcends this futile fleshly existance. Service to God & others has since been my overriding motive. I admit I have several unsavoury character defects, but I'm trying to overcome them daily.

By the way, I bought my truck for running it on diesel biofuels.

Best wishes to all.

 

[welder]

Supposedly the red palm oil from West Africa is supposed to be okay. But, I am looking for endorsement from a reliable source before I buy it. I read about West Africa and although there are some natural occurring groves harvested by people who live nearby and some small individually owned palm farms, most of the production is on huge plantations that are run by the government who pays the locals poorly and reaps the profits.

My wife is a Ghanian expatriate.

I'm not arguing, but I doubt that the Ghanian govt would farm palms. Maybe, but I doubt it. If you have a link or a reference, I'd like to read up myself.

One day I'll open my own farm there & let you people know about it so you can buy with moral confidence that nature is somewhat reasonably protected.

 

[gemini]

Here ya go
http://www.wrm.org.uy/bulletin/100/Uganda.html
This is one of the articles I found.
It all sounds very lovely until you get to the bottom of the page

"Large scale oil palm plantations (as well as in other monocultures) are typically related to violation of land rights and other human rights, since they take large areas of indigenous or peasant population’s lands leading to conflicts.

The government is trying to convince the residents of the islands to lease their land to the plantation and “make money” but there are reports of many family conflicts developing because of the project. After loosing their land, where will those people work? Presumably in the oil palm plantations, affected by the widespread use of agrochemicals in oil palm production, in temporary jobs, poorly paid, and in bad conditions as experience in other countries shows. What is certain is that the benefits won’t go for the people but for large enterprises -increasingly foreign- which control production, industrialization and commercialization of palm oil. "

Like I said my source would have to prove to me that they obtained oil from eithical harvest.

 

[topcat]

I have been enjoying reading everyone's posts here and agree this is a multi-faceted topic with no single simple solution.

I didn't use palm oil in my soap and put up with unmoulding issues happily...well, not very happily :wink: ......until I found an Australian sustainably farmed palm oil supply. Still cannot find sustainable PKO - maybe one day.

I am a supporter of AOP (Australian Orangutan Project) and adopt a baby orangutan each year to do my little bit. I also spread the word about palm oil from 'slash/burn' farming. One of Australia's largest supermarket chains is the biggest re-seller of palm oil products in our country. Palm oil is in almost every processed food you buy from your store's shelves. I must point out that the handmade soaping community is a tiny drip in the ocean of palm oil use on our planet. Food manufacturers are far and away the biggest users. Not saying soapers shouldn't have a conscience about it....but to each his own.

Tanya (gets off soapbox now :wink: )