Opinions on gelling do not add up!

[MorpheusPA]

Great question and I see you have done some reading. Trace does not tell you moisture content. It tells you lack thereof just like slump tells lack of water or loose water that is not blended.

No, it doesn't. Too high, high, medium, low, and lowest-possible water level emulsions will all reach trace.

Trace is a good way to determine you've reached emulsion. But it isn't even a completely reliable measure of that!

Once those substances join together or emulsifies that means you have a lack of EXCESS moisture or lack of loose water therefore you are in effect using it to tell your moisture content.

You're making it sound like there's too much water until it traces. There isn't. It merely hasn't emulsified and reacted to the point where it can sustain a momentary trail (light trace) or further (medium, heavy trace).

Emulsion is nothing more than the colloidal suspension of water, oil(s), and lye all together in the mix, stably. Unstable emulsion would result in separation...and that can happen with any mix, traced or not.

And yes, it is like mixing water with a dry substance. Both produce a chemical exothermic reaction.

No, it's not anything at all like that. Cement does not produce a stable emulsion.

Not all exothermic reactions are emulsions. Not all emulsions produce exothermic reactions. Water, oil, and (dissolved) lye are not dry and have no dry component upon combination.

I'll bow out, I have a feeling this will turn into the same type argument as water amounts did. I'm not interested in that.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not about to go down this rabbit hole yet again, so I'm bowing out too. Y'all have fun.

 

[iwannasoap]

You must tell me what sort of time dilation you live in. My ungelled soaps can easily take 5 days to unmold in the height of summer then I wait another day before I cut just to make sure everything is firm enough. Gelled soaps, 12 hours from pour to curing shelf regardless of ambient temperature or recipe.

I’m really struggling with seeing how gelling fails to affect my soap.

I actually live in Georgia and its very cold right now. So I can know we understand each other correctly "What do you call ungelled soaps?"

I will tell you from my side of it. There are many people on here that you will find who will tell you that one the ways to attain gel is to add more water as in more then a 50/50 solution. I have thought long and hard about it and I tend to agree because you can heat dirt all you want but you cant get mud until you add water. Water retains heat longer, not necessarily higher heat, it just retains heat. I have learned by reading other sources that retaining heat for longer periods of time, but not too long, achieves the results that most soapers want.
So, going by that info, I am actually wondering if you are talking about "gelling" or "emulsification"? I do know that when I do not properly blend my ingredients it can and will delay molding. It will even be sticky in portions of the loaf and not sticky in other portions.
But on the other hand, most of the time I have learned to use very low water because I am just not experienced enough to do all that fancy stuff yet and I depend on types and amounts of oils and butters used to achieve what I want. I get in there, do what I have to do with color or what not, and get out. If I blended well to properly emulsify the batter, unmolding can be done in about 7-8 hours. I do normally wait till the next day to make sure but if I started early enough I'll have it out that night and cut and on the shelf.
On the contrary - every time I use more water to try and achieve this gel phase (which I never see anyhow.lol) It always, without fail, takes longer to unmold and I am even liable to get soda ash. (which in my opinion is my mistake for not blending enough and I still have standing water that is not visible to me). Mistakes like this can happen and in my opinion can be reduced by simply lessening the water.

 

[earlene]

Therefore, time is a factor which should be considered if you want gel which means more controlling your water amount by controlling gel.

Actually I don't believe 'time' is a factor. It either gels or it doesn't. You can't stop time, but you can stop gel by putting the filled mold into a freezer (common method for some milk soaps to prevent gel). The same amount of time passes and yet the soap does not gel. In this case, it certainly appears to me as though temperature is the deciding factor and not the amount of water. (Of course some soap heats up a lot even in the freezer and will still gel, but that is not based on time; it is based on the ingredients that produce heat within the batter.)

And I also don't believe that water alone is the deciding factor in trace, either. Trace is when the batter leaves a track (a trace) of itself when you lift the utensil out of the batter and drip it in a pattern across the top. Thin trace, medium trace, thick trace. Trace is evidence to me that the lye is beginning to react with the oils in such a way that soap is being made and the batter is ready to pour into the mold. How thick trace is determined by other factors besides water.

Now, you may not agree with my assessment, but that's how I experience soap making.

 

[iwannasoap]

Bow out and be rude!

Firstly, I want to say this.
There are many people on this site that know quite a bit. But they are at the point where they cannot learn themselves and have only taken on the role of teacher!
Secondly - What really bugs me are know it alls who get on here, say I am wrong, and then turn around and say the same thing just to make them selves look good and you know who you are.

To those people I have complimented and thanked, I truly meant it and I am glad you are here and have told me your side of it.

But I would like to say this, nor me, is a rabbit hole and it truly says what kind of person you are! Maybe, you and a few others can empty your glass a little bit and learn to relate to people.

How about this one ~ Try looking up the definition of emulsion sometimes. It does not just apply to soap. It applies to any products that do not normally mix well together and that includes concrete which is a mixture of cement. sand and aggregate. 3 totally different objects that when not mixed well produces pools of water. That is emulsification.
The exact same physical properties happen. Both can have additives to add or reduce length of time in hardening. Both produce pools of water if not mixed. Both produce soda ash (coincident, I think not). Concrete uses slump to determine emulsification and moisture, Soaping uses "trace".
If you think that everything is not relative then you are sadly mistaken because their are certain laws in Physics that always pertain to certain and seemingly unrelated things. You just have to see it and learn how to empty the glass your drinking.

 

[Laurabolyard]

I'm just curious, as I have my first CP all wrapped up in towels as we speak, are you wanting to reach gel, or you really don't care and are more interested in unmolding?

 

[earlene]

To change the subject just a bit, I like Georgia. One spot in particular that I like to visit in Georgia is Senoia because I am a Walking Dead fan. I have been there several times alone, with my husband and also with my granddaughter. In fact one day my granddaughter was so thrilled to be there when Darryl (Norman Reedus) was filming, evidenced by the presence of his motorcycle in the morning and it's absence a couple of hours later, meaning to her that he had to be riding it elsewhere for filming.

My husband likes Macon, because he is an Allman Brothers fan and likes to visit The Big House. In fact he has suggested moving to Macon when he retires.

On another note, one year (2016? or maybe it was 2015?) while on one of my trips visiting Senoia and searching out various filming sites for TWD, I saw so many dead armadillos, that I was absolutely amazed. I had had no idea armadillos lived and wandered the streets in Georgia until I saw so many as roadkill. Since then I bought a little armadillo carving in honor of those departed creatures from that trip.

Okay, sorry to have high-jacked your thread. But since you are in Georgia, I thought I'd mention a few experiences and impressions of your lovely Peach state.

 

[iwannasoap]

Actually I don't believe 'time' is a factor. It either gels or it doesn't. You can't stop time, but you can stop gel by putting the filled mold into a freezer (common method for some milk soaps to prevent gel). The same amount of time passes and yet the soap does not gel. In this case, it certainly appears to me as though temperature is the deciding factor and not the amount of water. (Of course some soap heats up a lot even in the freezer and will still gel, but that is not based on time; it is based on the ingredients that produce heat within the batter.)

And I also don't believe that water alone is the deciding factor in trace, either. Trace is when the batter leaves a track (a trace) of itself when you lift the utensil out of the batter and drip it in a pattern across the top. Thin trace, medium trace, thick trace. Trace is evidence to me that the lye is beginning to react with the oils in such a way that soap is being made and the batter is ready to pour into the mold. How thick trace is determined by other factors besides water.

Now, you may not agree with my assessment, but that's how I experience soap making.

I like what you say and your basically saying the same thing I am saying so we definitely agree. No, water is not the deciding factor but what water does do is extend the amount of time to hold heat. Water retains heat very well but it is also the hardest in nature to heat! That is where time is the factor and water can help with that. Not the only thing but it can.
What happens if you don't get that loaf of mold quite in time to the freezer.
Will it partially gel? If you had made time for the bowl of ice to put the lye bowl into, if you had made time to lessen the hard oils, if the kids were here tomorrow instead of today,,,,, Time is a factor in all of those. The difference between a short gel phase and a long gel phase is time! Even when you visit a genealogical website time is factored in milliseconds behind the scenes in the code. Its always there, we just forgot about it but it can be factored into making soap and achieving the length of gel phase if so desired.
Although none of us consider length of time a factor in the gel phase it does play a part. After all, who cares as long as we get what we want right?

Great assessment by the way and nice to meet you.

 

[iwannasoap]

I'm just curious, as I have my first CP all wrapped up in towels as we speak, are you wanting to reach gel, or you really don't care and are more interested in unmolding?

Thanks for asking and good luck with your soap!
I started this thread mainly because of the statement that I read on on another thread that said something like gelled soap will not get soda ash (or something like that?)
I had to start from the beginning and explain that you normally cannot get gelled soap (w/out external help) with a lack of water such as a 50/50 ratio. It may or may not gel but what ever it does it will do quickly which is not enough time to achieve the color phases or whatever these people preach about. Length of time in the gel phase is actually controlled by water. Heat is controlled by the oils and butters and amount of lye that you use.
But to get to gel phase water must be added to more then a 50/50 lye solution. As a consequence to that, that is when soda ash can develop and can also be caused by a lack of blending or emulsifying the batter. In soap batter, the very small pools of water that is not blended will gravitate to the sides and to the corners simply because the water has less of a density then the batter and will be pushed outside. That is where the soda ash will occur if it does at all.
So, in short ~ bringing the batter to gel with more water can cause soda ash under the right conditions and not the opposite.
And no, I really don't care about gel phase. If I get it I get it if I don't then I don't. I am going to try and do it more though because I believe when the gelling stage is increased then there is less of a chance for the soap to crack while using. I believe a short lived, too hot of a gel phase will cause this. However, on the other hand, putting it in the freezer to prevent gel phase will provide a strong bar also. Its either at one end of the extreme or the other that is good.
Oh yeah, concerning unmolding - I do like the fact of unmolding quicker but the only reason I brought that up was that the article I read stated that gelled soaps unmold quicker. I am simply not buying that reasoning simply because gelling takes water. The more water I add the longer it takes to unmold. I have unmolded Castile soap in 8 hours. I would have not done that if I had used more water to gel.
But however, don't get me wrong. Amount of water is not the only thing that determines when to unmold. It is the amount of hard butters or other additives that you add that can determine that also. I am just saying water because that will always remain constant.
When it concerns additives and stuff like that..I don't think I am ready for that yet because I do not know enough.

What did you put in your soap. What kind of fragrance? I bet it turned out good! If it feels sticky at all when you go and unmold ~ LEAVE IT and don't take it out till it feels like it is not sticky anymore. Also, you may already know, putting it in the freezer for a little while before unmolding can help but don't do it if its sticky because it will be sticky frozen soap when you get it out.
Also, I eventually started using heating pads to wrap my soap in. You know the kind for your back that you lay on. Those work out really well.

 

[dixiedragon]

I don’t understand why you insist on trying to apply your knowledge of concrete to soap. Several people have told you, they are entirely different. It’s not an apples to oranges comparison because at least apples and oranges are both fruit.

 

[Laurabolyard]

This is my third batch of soap, I did 2 HP since yesterday and was happy with the result. This CP is all wrapped up, its cedar EO. Thank you for the tip about being sticky and leaving it alone! I was kind of unsure how I would know if it was ready. The HP was so easy, I just popped it in the freezer and cut it in a couple of hours. This waiting is tough!!
I am really curious to see if and how much it gelled and how much tweaking I will have to do! I am a teacher and it will be awhile before I get another opportunity to experiment!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The water might well allow the heat to hold longer, but that's not why water amount has such an impact on the gelling. More water physically enables the phase change. More water means that the soap can change phase more easily, which means less heat is needed.

But at this point, as you misinterpret my posts and state your misinterpretation as being what I actually meant, I am also bowing out. By all means, ask me for clarification on things, but I don't enjoy having my words misapplied.

 

[BattleGnome]

I actually live in Georgia and its very cold right now. So I can know we understand each other correctly "What do you call ungelled soaps?"

It has been bit of a struggle not to write a snotty post and I do apologize if this ends up snotty.

Have you taken the time to read through all the sticky threads in the beginner forum? The language used in those threads are a good example of the language to expect in the forum and (in my experience) most websites that talk about soaping.

What is my definition of a gelled soap? Gelled soap is a batch of soap that has been held above a certain temperature for a period of time with intent to hurry saponification. I just checked the weather for your neck of the woods, and the 30’s are reasonably cold. I live 20mi south of Lake Superior and the daytime average has been -30F with windchill (at this writing it is +3F and I don’t know current windchill). No matter what recipe I use or water amount I choose, I will not achieve gel without the help of insulation. Normally I can leave my soap in a cold oven and let it do its thing, this week I actually need to preheat my oven due to the cold.

Reading through this thread I feel you are missing the forest for the trees. By focusing on water and the thermal properties of water you are forgetting that there are other ways of maintaining temperature. I use the oven to retain the heat of saponification. Some people merely need a box or towel to keep the heat in, others use a heated blanket/pad to make sure the soap reaches the appropriate temperature. The thermal properties of water do help with gel phase but it is only a part of a whole. When you decide to branch out beyond a 50% solution you will begin to see some of the different techniques capable of influencing gel. I know I learned a lot when I first stopped using full water and started playing with a 30-33% concentration.

So, going by that info, I am actually wondering if you are talking about "gelling" or "emulsification"?

I know I’m talking about gel and not emulsification because of the definition of soap. If a soap does not have a successful emulsification it is not soap, it is a bowl full of fat and caustic that will never harden into a bar. It may help to think of making soap as the following steps: emulsify, light trace, medium trace, heavy/thick trace, gel phase, solid soap. The gel phase is optional but if you don’t emulsify none of the rest could possibly happen.

 

[iwannasoap]

No, it doesn't. Too high, high, medium, low, and lowest-possible water level emulsions will all reach trace.

Trace is a good way to determine you've reached emulsion. But it isn't even a completely reliable measure of that!



You're making it sound like there's too much water until it traces. There isn't. It merely hasn't emulsified and reacted to the point where it can sustain a momentary trail (light trace) or further (medium, heavy trace).

Emulsion is nothing more than the colloidal suspension of water, oil(s), and lye all together in the mix, stably. Unstable emulsion would result in separation...and that can happen with any mix, traced or not.



No, it's not anything at all like that. Cement does not produce a stable emulsion.

Not all exothermic reactions are emulsions. Not all emulsions produce exothermic reactions. Water, oil, and (dissolved) lye are not dry and have no dry component upon combination.

I'll bow out, I have a feeling this will turn into the same type argument as water amounts did. I'm not interested in that.

Bow out then!
Please re-read what I said. "Great question and I see you have done some reading. Trace does not tell you moisture content. It tells you lack thereof just like slump tells lack of water or loose water that is not blended."
I am not typing this for you because you do not know how to empty your glass. I am typing this for me!

Taking this one at a time, You said "No it doesn't blah blah blah"
What I mean by water content or excess water content is that those 3 things, in that particular spot, water, oil, and lye, have not blended or emulsified (or bonded!!!!!!!!!) so if it has not bonded yet then it is excess water until you stick blend a little more!!!

You state the various water emulsions all reach trace. Of course they do! I never said that it didn't so I don't understand where the disagreement here is? But I will say this - You cannot reach trace until their is a bonding of the materials used by emulsifying which is blending unrelated products together.

I never said it was reliable and I almost agree.

And concerning concrete~

If you agree with this in any sort of way that you can relate too "You cannot reach trace until their is a bonding of the materials used by emulsifying which is blending unrelated products together."

Concrete is the same I deal with it every day and I actually have been formulating this comparison for quite a while.
Both get hot!
Both use additives to get the desired effect.
Both have different ingredients to provide different strengths.
Both mix unrelated products together to make a certain consistency.
Both form soda ash!!!!!
Both form soda ash from unblended water or water that has not bonded yet (or loose water).
Soaping uses "trace" to check for no separation. concrete (not cement here. Don't confuse the two) uses "slump" to check for no separation or bonding if you will. You cannot have slump OR trace if there is separation. So when you disagree with me and then turn around and say the same thing it makes me wonder what your real motive is?
Believe me, I say this only because of a few rude people who only know how to take on the role as a teacher? Are you one of them?

 

[iwannasoap]

It has been bit of a struggle not to write a snotty post and I do apologize if this ends up snotty.

Have you taken the time to read through all the sticky threads in the beginner forum? The language used in those threads are a good example of the language to expect in the forum and (in my experience) most websites that talk about soaping.

What is my definition of a gelled soap? Gelled soap is a batch of soap that has been held above a certain temperature for a period of time with intent to hurry saponification. I just checked the weather for your neck of the woods, and the 30’s are reasonably cold. I live 20mi south of Lake Superior and the daytime average has been -30F with windchill (at this writing it is +3F and I don’t know current windchill). No matter what recipe I use or water amount I choose, I will not achieve gel without the help of insulation. Normally I can leave my soap in a cold oven and let it do its thing, this week I actually need to preheat my oven due to the cold.

Reading through this thread I feel you are missing the forest for the trees. By focusing on water and the thermal properties of water you are forgetting that there are other ways of maintaining temperature. I use the oven to retain the heat of saponification. Some people merely need a box or towel to keep the heat in, others use a heated blanket/pad to make sure the soap reaches the appropriate temperature. The thermal properties of water do help with gel phase but it is only a part of a whole. When you decide to branch out beyond a 50% solution you will begin to see some of the different techniques capable of influencing gel. I know I learned a lot when I first stopped using full water and started playing with a 30-33% concentration.



I know I’m talking about gel and not emulsification because of the definition of soap. If a soap does not have a successful emulsification it is not soap, it is a bowl full of fat and caustic that will never harden into a bar. It may help to think of making soap as the following steps: emulsify, light trace, medium trace, heavy/thick trace, gel phase, solid soap. The gel phase is optional but if you don’t emulsify none of the rest could possibly happen.

That's COLD and no I don't think your snotty. I think your contributing to a healthy discussion but like all healthy discussion; both parties need to learn something. In some of these cases, or responses from this thread, you can see who is willing to learn and who is not or has no room for learning.

And yes, I have read quite a bit! There are inconsistencies in the soaping community and that is the point of this thread. I am merely pointing it out and then when I point it out people like to say I am wrong and then they turn around and say it themselves. Is that liberalism; lol? I don't know.
For instance, it was stated gelling helps to avoid soda ash. Hmm, that doesn't hold well up to examination. As you know, and I agree with you, you have to have water to gel. As a consequence to that, excess or loose water in the mold can for soda ash. That will only occur with excess water NOT lack of water. For instance, When I say things like that people tend to disagree and refer me to this Auntie Clara person from South Africa. I go check her website out and lo and behold she is saying the exact same thing I am saying. I actually am seeing many cases on here where pride is getting in the way and people are not relating to what others are saying. They are only in a student teacher mode and have lost their bench marking skills!
And no, I am not talking about you. I think your contributing to others who read this, me, and yourself!
Don't you wish you could move to the south?
And, I must admit we live in two completely environments. I have heard before how people in colder climates don't even bother soaping. It is in the 20's here right now but I bet I can make a loaf with very little water and unmold it quickly. I believe you when you say climate is a factor and I will definitely think on it for a while to understand how it affects soap. Meaning: Inside of your house is really no colder then the inside of mine? Moisture in the air (LAKE) must have a lot to do with it. I will definitely think on it. OHHH, never mind. I understand already. It is your lake. There is more moisture in the air and so the air is not attracting moisture from your soap as fast as it would here. So you have to use external help. Do you have a DE-humidifier in your soaping room?

 

[LilyJo]

I dont want to get sucked into this worm hole having read the previous thread and now this one but....

...there are loads of experienced soapers here who have more years of knowledge, testing, experimenting, analsying etc than any of us and anyone who contributes to discussions on SMF needs to understand that not everyone will agree with everything all of the time. But that doesnt make anyone 100% right or 100% wrong.

All of our soapmaking has contributing factors that affect the end result from the recipe, the humidity the temperature to just plain human error and everyone will judge the imact of trace, gel, speed in a different way.

But the tone of your messages and the patronising and dismissive way you speak to some of the responders is probably why you are not getting the cosy warm feeling of agreement on your thread. I have no wish to get into a discussion with you but remember that respect works both ways and if you treat people badly that is what you will get back.

 

[iwannasoap]

1) All else being equal. If you're trying to compare a water pocket, or a 25% concentration versus a 33% concentration, of course it'll differ. Gelling, with my typical 33% concentration, can make the difference between saponification in a few hours versus two days.

2) Ditto.

3) What? Time in terms of what?

4) Ditto to #1 and #2. Comparing apples to oranges never works. Also:



The Dunning-Kruger Effect sounds like it's coming into play here.

Thanks for the comparison. Have heard that before. Just did not remember the name of it because it is not in my normal vocabulary.
I actually said that not to inflate myself but to offer some sort of credibility. When you see "Dr.", "PHD", "Chemist", "engineer" sort of terms does that not offer credibility to their reputation. If you broke your leg would you make an appointment with "Mr. Smith" or would you make an appointment with "Dr. Smith"?
I perfectly well recognize my inabilities to understand some things and I readily say so. If you read my comments carefully I readily say that and I am pretty consistent with it.
Getting back to the effect you speak of though. It mentions superiority! Please read other comments from other people on this thread and figure for yourself, objectively, who feels superior.
Funny enough though, when reading the definition it mentioned driving skills etc. etc. I do all of those things lol. I actually am a terrible chess player and the more I play the dumber I get. I have been playing for 44 years and play several games a day so I really recognize my limitations. But I do not stop in trying to get better. That is with all things that I do (that I like) and I can see where you might misjudge that character trait.
Nice to meet you!

 

[mx5inpenn]

Oh yeah, concerning unmolding - I do like the fact of unmolding quicker but the only reason I brought that up was that the article I read stated that gelled soaps unmold quicker. I am simply not buying that reasoning simply because gelling takes water. The more water I add the longer it takes to unmold. I have unmolded Castile soap in 8 hours. I would have not done that if I had used more water to gel.

There is a very simple way for you to understand what everyone keeps telling you. You already know most of us have a preferred lye concentration for our recipes. You are comparing extremely low water soap to a moderate water soap. That's apples and oranges. Try comparing apples and apples. It's a very simple experiment.

Make 2 batches of soap side by side. Use your favorite well balanced mix of oils. Use 33% lye concentration for both. Both having the same water is key, that's a big part of what makes it apples to apples. Don't insulate the first one, leave it sit in the open in a cool area. (The intention here is to not gel. Mine won't in the winter if I soap cool. Hopefully you don't need to refrigerate in order to prevent it. It works out the same way, but adds another variable that for simplicity's sake is unwanted.) Insulate the second and put it in a 140-170 degree oven then turn the oven off and don't open for 12 hours. (This one is to force gel.) After those 12 hours are up, check them both and let us know the results.

Just so you know, I have actually done the above experiment. I'm not the only one who has. Umolding quicker with gel is a viable reason to do it. When I did this test, it wasn't for the unmolding times tho, it was soda ash I tested for. Also a valid reason to gel.

Away from the other threads... You have the opportunity to learn a lot from people with years of experience and knowledge. Listen to understand, rather than to respond.

And one last thing. Concrete can not be an emulsion, that requires 2 liquids being mixed, not a liquid and solids. From Merriam-Webster.

emulsion
1 a : a system (such as fat in milk) consisting of a liquid dispersed with or without an emulsifier in an immiscible liquid usually in droplets of larger than colloidal size
b : the state of such a system