Opinions on gelling do not add up!

[iwannasoap]

While I am just a lowly truck drover who makes soap on the side; I am seeing differences of opinion on gelling and so I just thought I would write this down mainly for myself to learn and for others to read. If I put it down on paper, I can reason it out and get better myself. I woke up way too early.

I read this this morning.
"Gel/Gelling/Gel Phase- the point at which the exothermic chemical reaction between the lye and oils/fats (saponification) speeds up/intensifies and causes the soap batter to go into a temporary, liquid crystalline state. In this phase, the batter heats up, and its appearance darkens and turns into a translucent gel, starting from the middle and spreading outward to the edges. Do not be alarmed- the batter is on the fast-track to becoming soap. As the saponification reaction concludes and the mixture turns to soap, things will cool back down, gradually harden, and become more opaque again. The advantages of gelling over not gelling are 1) full saponification is achieved quicker and the soap will be less likely to exhibit 'zap' when unmolded; 2) the soap can be unmolded and cut much quicker; 3) colors come out more brilliant/less pastel, i.e., reds will come out red instead of pink; 4) there is less chance of heavy ash developing on the surface of the soap 5) the 'soak tests' done by Dr. Kevin Dunn show that gelled soap is slightly less water soluble than un-gelled soap, making for a bar of soap that lasts that much longer. "

Most of it I definitely do not see differences of other things I have read but there are subtle differences that are, in my opinion, are important to know to get the story straight. I'll start with the first one.

1) full saponification is achieved quicker and the soap will be less likely to exhibit 'zap' when unmolded;
When I start my car, I don't care how it it works. I just want it to start! So, the word "saponification" does not concern me here. What does concern me is the word "quick"! Let me explain please.
Concerning gelling, there is no argument that there must be more then a 50/50 water/lye ratio to achieve gel. If you are using a 50/50 ratio and there are very small pools of isolated (as in not quite mixed as thoroughly as you think)water in your mold ~ that might gel but it will be very short lived and it will not morph your color. Length of time is important and adding water increases that length of time. However, what is disagreed with where there are differences of opinion is that quick implies quick un-molding. How can that be? The more water I add, the longer the gel phase, too long of a gel phase and I will have to wait longer to unmold? How can it be quicker?
Now, establishing the fact the fact it will take longer to unmold if more water is added, how can it have less "zap"? That may or may not be true. Not much of an argument there but I will say this. I frequently use a 1 to a 1.1 ratio and I have done the zap test when unmolding as little as 8 hours later and I do not get one zap. I however will not do it if I use more water because water is a carrier for lye and will spread it more evenly through out the mold and I do realize it is not quite as hard and I am jsut plain scared too.

2) the soap can be unmolded and cut much quicker;
Same reasons as above..

3) colors come out more brilliant/less pastel, i.e., reds will come out red instead of pink;
Definitely no argument here but I would like to add that length of time is a factor and must be considered. More water increases time, less water decreases time.

4) there is less chance of heavy ash developing on the surface of the soap
This is what caught my eye and this is very important and is mainly where the differences lie.
While I am not a chemist, I do have a couple of college degrees which really only gives me reasoning skills. What I have to offer here is to say this- The only way to get gel is adding more water. When more water is added there might be very small pools of water that are not completely mixed. That is where the soda ash comes from and it can only be present when more water is added and not less. Please visit this Auntie Clara person when she discusses her ghosting soap. You will briefly see that soda ash only occurred in the portion with more water. Not less. I sort of have experience here which helps me to understand this. To be more precise, I drive a concrete truck. I relate the concert to soap. Many times I have to add more water. I notice that when I do not mix it thoroughly there will be small pools of water that is separate from the mixture. This same thing happens with soap batter and that is exactly what crystalizes during the gel phase especially if the gel phase is a longer one which can only happen if more water is added.

5) the 'soak tests' done by Dr. Kevin Dunn show that gelled soap is slightly less water soluble than un-gelled soap, making for a bar of soap that lasts that much longer. "
No disagreement here!

What is your take on it so I can learn more?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

You need to stop dwelling on length of gel phase as something overly important. If the soap gets hot enough (how hot is hot enough is determined largely by the amount of water. More water means that you need less heat) it will change phase. If it's gelling, it's hot enough and will have enough time. If it only partially gels, not all of the soap got hot enough. Time is less of a factor in that, unless you're talking about how long you keep it insulated for or in a warmed oven. But that is not changing the "gelling time", but rather the temperature of the soap.

Ash is less to do with water not being mixed in, more to do with water allowing lye to migrate to the edges where it meets air and turns to sodium carbonate.

 

[shunt2011]

^^^^^
This exactly.

 

[dixiedragon]

I think to answer some of your questions, you would need to do recipes with the same amount of water, but gel one and don't gel the other. Also, keep in mind that many of us aren't terribly scientific, so we are reporting our observations, and may be (inadvertently) leaving out important info.

"However, what is disagreed with where there are differences of opinion is that quick implies quick un-molding. How can that be? The more water I add, the longer the gel phase, too long of a gel phase and I will have to wait longer to unmold? How can it be quicker?"

I think there is a line. Most of us aren't soaping with a 50% lye water ratio. If you are using 50% lye/water as your baseline, then yes, adding more water does make for a faster/harder gel. But I think a 33% lye ratio is more typical. At that point, you see diminishing returns by adding more water. Also, keep in mind that water does have to evaporate out of the soap, so that is part of what makes the soap softer and take longer to unmold.

 

[Obsidian]

Regarding quicker unmolding, this is comparing gelled vs ungelled, not high vs low water gelling. I don't care how much water is used, a soap that is fully gelled will come out of the mold quicker than ungelled soap.

Zapping- again, this is comparing gelled vs ungelled. All fully gelled soap will be zap free, ungelled can take up to 3 days to be zap free, even if its firm enough to unmold and cut. This is why I never zap test fresh soap, I don't normally gel and I know my soap will be zappy for a day or two.

ash- gelled soap is less likely to make soda ash simply because the lye is used up quicker than in ungelled reducing the amount of time for the ash to form.

 

[dibbles]

1) full saponification is achieved quicker and the soap will be less likely to exhibit 'zap' when unmolded;
When I start my car, I don't care how it it works. I just want it to start! So, the word "saponification" does not concern me here. What does concern me is the word "quick"! Let me explain please.
Concerning gelling, there is no argument that there must be more then a 50/50 water/lye ratio to achieve gel. If you are using a 50/50 ratio and there are very small pools of isolated (as in not quite mixed as thoroughly as you think)water in your mold ~ that might gel but it will be very short lived and it will not morph your color. Length of time is important and adding water increases that length of time. However, what is disagreed with where there are differences of opinion is that quick implies quick un-molding. How can that be? The more water I add, the longer the gel phase, too long of a gel phase and I will have to wait longer to unmold? How can it be quicker?
Now, establishing the fact the fact it will take longer to unmold if more water is added, how can it have less "zap"? That may or may not be true. Not much of an argument there but I will say this. I frequently use a 1 to a 1.1 ratio and I have done the zap test when unmolding as little as 8 hours later and I do not get one zap. I however will not do it if I use more water because water is a carrier for lye and will spread it more evenly through out the mold and I do realize it is not quite as hard and I am jsut plain scared too.

2) the soap can be unmolded and cut much quicker;
Same reasons as above..

What is your take on it so I can learn more?

I think that you are considering this only in terms of what you personally see. You are talking about unmolding in hours. I think the 'unmolding quicker' is really referring to days. I gel all my soaps (or at least try to get them to gel). One of the reasons is because I can unmold the next day rather than waiting several days for the soap to become firm enough to get out of the mold. I use silicone liners in a wood mold. I don't see any advantage to unmolding the soap at 6-8 hours vs. 12 hours, as I always wait until the next day. For me, unmolding at 12 hours vs 2-3 days is one of the reasons I gel my soaps.

Also, I don't know where in Georgia you live, but I am guessing that while it might be cooler in the winter months, you don't have a huge temperature fluctuation in your home. I am in Minnesota and it is currently 4 degrees. The temperature in our home ranges from 60 at night to 68-70 during the day. During the summer months, our inside temperature is 65-80. I don't use a 1:1 lye solution for many reasons, but getting my soaps to gel is one of the main reasons I use higher water. I am simply able to reach gel phase more readily with a 30-33% lye solution.

 

[MorpheusPA]

1) All else being equal. If you're trying to compare a water pocket, or a 25% concentration versus a 33% concentration, of course it'll differ. Gelling, with my typical 33% concentration, can make the difference between saponification in a few hours versus two days.

2) Ditto.

3) What? Time in terms of what?

4) Ditto to #1 and #2. Comparing apples to oranges never works. Also:

While I am not a chemist, I do have a couple of college degrees which really only gives me reasoning skills.

The Dunning-Kruger Effect sounds like it's coming into play here.

 

[IrishLass]

The only way to get gel is adding more water.

Not true. Full gel can be achieved with lesser amounts of water, but there's a trick to it- the trick is to apply some heat. I do this with my 33% to 40% lye-concentrated batches by soaping between 110F - 120F, covering and insulating my filled mold, and then placing it in a pre-warmed 110F - 120F oven (which I turn off as soon as my soap is inside). I get full gel each time and can unmold and cut and bevel my soaps all within a 12- 18 hour period (6 hours or less if I'm making a salt bar or a 100% coconut oil soap without salt using a 33% lye concentration).


IrishLass

 

[iwannasoap]

1) All else being equal. If you're trying to compare a water pocket, or a 25% concentration versus a 33% concentration, of course it'll differ. Gelling, with my typical 33% concentration, can make the difference between saponification in a few hours versus two days.

2) Ditto.

3) What? Time in terms of what?

4) Ditto to #1 and #2. Comparing apples to oranges never works. Also:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect sounds like it's coming into play here.

That's funny. I will have to look that up. If I have it I'll definitely let you know. Lol, I didn't expect to learn that one but I will. Thank you.

I perfectly agree with you and thank you for that which brings up another point. I do believe it will gel from what I have read and seen especially if it hasn't been mixed as thoroughly as it could. But however I have learned it is short lived. And while I am not good at putting mine in the oven I can still un-mold quickly just as you but it is debatable whether mine has gelled.
Aside from quoting in a book I have a practical example if you care to read....
Making soap is just like the concrete industry. Sand is weighed and heated to determine the moisture content in the sand. That then can be converted to an entire load to adjust for water.
Water holds heat and is actually a heat exchanger but the drier the sand the less likely it will hold heat. The heat will dissipate quicker. It will get hotter then sand with water but it will not stay that way. So to make it shorter concerning gel phase to soap (which is the same) my new saying is "You can heat sand all you want but you can't make mud until you add water!"
Here's another one for you-
Just like soap concrete also gets soda ash. While you cannot see it in a soap mold on a small scale, I can see it on a larger scale on a slab. Small pools of water occur where it is not quite mixed enough. Coincidentally, that is exactly where the soda ash occurs on concrete. It must be buffed out and smoothed. It is exactly the same for soap batter and the exact same process occurs.
So for people to say correctly that it occurs on the corners and sides I must agree with them. But I would like to add that it is from excess of water (not excessive) that is not quite emulsified as well in those small areas.
One more thing I thought I would add for the heck of it. Soap batter, as you know, has the term "trace" which can be thought of how well it is mixed and that is how a soaper measures the moisture. In the concrete industry, that is called "Slump". We don't have a bowl to let it drip down the sides to see if separation occurs. It is placed in a cone and rodded till it smooths out. The 10" cone is then lifted to see to see how many inches it has fallen and that gives a good measure on moisture content.

One of my points that I was trying to make was that the writer says gelling means unmolding faster. My point was is that gelling has nothing to do with unmolding faster and can give wrong impressions. Can you unmold while in the gel phase? The more water, the lesser the temperature, the longer it will hold heat, the longer the gel phase. Too low of a temperature and your loaf is in a state of suspended animation so to speak and can last for a while. Gelling has everything to do with color. As for longer lasting Idunno.

 

[DeeAnna]

"..."trace" which can be thought of how well it is mixed and that is how a soaper measures the moisture..."

This is not correct. Trace is a visible indicator that is mostly useful for beginners to help them decide whether the soap batter is at a stable emulsion or not. Trace is not an indicator of water content nor of how well the batter is mixed. Your reasoning is faulty.

 

[iwannasoap]

You need to stop dwelling on length of gel phase as something overly important. If the soap gets hot enough (how hot is hot enough is determined largely by the amount of water. More water means that you need less heat) it will change phase. If it's gelling, it's hot enough and will have enough time. If it only partially gels, not all of the soap got hot enough. Time is less of a factor in that, unless you're talking about how long you keep it insulated for or in a warmed oven. But that is not changing the "gelling time", but rather the temperature of the soap.

Ash is less to do with water not being mixed in, more to do with water allowing lye to migrate to the edges where it meets air and turns to sodium carbonate.

Thanks for your comment and it is good to hear from you again but I did not dwell on gel phase thank you very much:think:.
I had to give background to my main point which is the soda ash statement.
But this is what you really mean by your statements.
More water means less heat. Determined by water ~ exactly what I have been saying so I don't know yet where you disagree.

But that is not changing the "gelling time", but rather the temperature of the soap.
Now I believe that you are saying "water does not change the gelling time" but I do agree that it does change the temperature because water does have a cooling effect while at the same time it will hold heat for longer periods of time.
Which is it? Varying amounts of water does change the length of time in the gel phase! To lessen the time of gel phase; add less water. To lengthen the time of the gel phase; add more water.
Time must be a factor and to control the length of the gel phase you control the amounts of water. To prove that answer this. Would you want your soap gelled for 3 minutes or do you want your soap gelled for 3 hours. Which soap would have more attractive properties? So, time is definitely a factor and should be considered and that is controlled by the amount of water.
What I did dwell on however is soda ash. It was stated that more water must be used to stop soda ash. Re-Read Auntie Clara's website and she admits her soda ash only occurs on the portion with more water and not the less water portion. And I would like to add that your last two statements are really the same thing. The only way for it to gather on the edges and corners is by unknowingly not mixing quite as well as it could be. You are actually saying the same thing as me to be perfectly honest with you. Those very small pools of water, under the right conditions, will turn into ash.
That is a very important contradiction about water and soda ash and can make ugly soap.

P.S. It is not overly important but it is a concept to be understood and how to control it so I would say it is important.

 

[earlene]

Soda ash washes off and the underlying soap is just as pretty as it would have been had no soda ash formed on the surface. Anyhow that has been my experience with my soaps.

Regarding gelling time, if a soap reaches full gel, I don't really think it matters how much time it takes. I doubt very much any soap would gel in only 3 minutes, and I am not even sure 3 hours is really enough time either unless you are making pure CO soap. I believe there are more variables than time, amount of water and heat, although they all do play a part. The specific oils and other ingredients within the formula also play a part. For example, 100% coconut oil soap gels very fast and it doesn't seem to matter if one used full water or a higher lye concentration. Comparatively soaps made with high oleic oils tend to take longer to gel, and if not warm enough to start, need some help to get to full gel.

In summary, in my experience water alone is not the only way to control gel.

 

[iwannasoap]

A stable emulsion is a measure of how well ingredients, under normal circumstances, are blended together.
If you have soap batter with a small pool of water in the middle, is that blended well? Trace I believe will not occur as well.
But however, when blended well, trace will occur. So it is the same thing. Many soapers do not realize that they are not the only industry that uses "trace" to determine how well it is blended or how much excessive moisture content is. While they may not be used for this it is something to be considered. In the concrete industry it is called "slump". Don't bother looking it up in the dictionary. I have tried. It is used in construction dictionaries. Slump is determined by standing concrete in a 10" cone. When the cone is raised, depending on how wet it is AND the amount of mixing, the concrete will fall a certain amount. That is then measured by inches. A 2 inch slump will fall 2 inches and so on and so on. Trace is the same way but on a much smaller scale. Not only can you measure the moisture content by seeing that you are not getting trace (wetter or loose water) but you can also drip the batter down the side of the bowl to see signs of separation or clear liquid. That is also a measure of slump or trace. It is the same thing. Pooled water does not trace as well as a mixed batter. And, most importantly, I am 100% positive that you do the same thing! From your statement though maybe you do not realize what you are actually doing you are just doing it. I mean no harm but trace or slump has more serious implications then just a beginner checking soap batter. It is used very widely in many construction projects all over the world and really is a measuring tool and not just a term a soaper made up one day to determine when batter is mixed enough. Good to hear from you again!
I say this not in a demeaning way but in a "Broaden the horizon" way. It is something interesting to know and compare too and wonder how two competely different things can be so simalar. You would not believe how similar soap and concrete is. It is crazy and comparing the two can actually make you realize even more about soap!

 

[IrishLass]

One of my points that I was trying to make was that the writer says gelling means unmolding faster. My point was is that gelling has nothing to do with unmolding faster and can give wrong impressions.

I believe that the writer you speak of is me- that is if you happen to be referring to the quote you use in your opening post on what you read this morning about gelling (that was compiled/written by me). If you read what I wrote more closely, you'll see that I did not write that gelling means unmolding faster. I wrote: "The advantages of gelling over not gelling are .....2) the soap can be unmolded and cut much quicker" (bolded and underlined for emphasis). The point you are missing is that I was comparing how quick it is to unmold gelled soap vs. unmolding un-gelled soap. I hope that helps clear things up.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

"...when blended well, trace will occur..."

No, that is not correct. Trace is a visual indicator that the soap batter has become a stable emulsion. A mixture must be well mixed in order to emulsify, but not all well-mixed mixtures are emulsions.

"...Trace is the same way [as slump] but on a much smaller scale...."

Nope. Not the same at all. Concrete does not form an emulsion. Apples and oranges comparison.

 

[Obsidian]

How can trace tell you moisture content? If I use full water or 50/50 solution, trace looks and feels the same. Its not at all like mixing water with a dry substance like cement and watching the flow rate or "slump" to determine water content.

 

[BattleGnome]

One of my points that I was trying to make was that the writer says gelling means unmolding faster. My point was is that gelling has nothing to do with unmolding faster and can give wrong impressions.

You must tell me what sort of time dilation you live in. My ungelled soaps can easily take 5 days to unmold in the height of summer then I wait another day before I cut just to make sure everything is firm enough. Gelled soaps, 12 hours from pour to curing shelf regardless of ambient temperature or recipe.

I’m really struggling with seeing how gelling fails to affect my soap.

 

[iwannasoap]

Nice to meet meet you. Very good article and I have learned many things. Thank you.
I have a question though.
Is this what you were saying in column form though.
Advantages of gelled soap | Disadvantages of ungelled soap
Quicker to unmold | Not as quick to unmold
Gelled soap implies more water| Ungelled soap implies less water

Maybe I am a bit confused by what you are trying to say because if I were to graph length of time of unmolding versus water amount, the unmolding time would actually increase right along with increasing the water amount? The only way to achieve gel (without assistance) is to add water and at every point the unmolding time would be increased for every certain amount of water I add. So in short, what I am trying to say is, Gelling has nothing to do with decreasing unmolding time. Quickly unmolding has everything to do with water amount or lack thereof, materials used such as types of oils and butter used and/or other additives to lengthen gel time or shorten gel time if any at all?
Adding more water to attain gel can and will however produce a bar that doesn't crack under usage and therefore just might produce a stronger bar. Less water produces a shorter lived heat and might or might not produce, depending on oils and butters, a bar that will crack under usage.
By the way, What does OP mean? I keep seeing that. Again, very good article and very well researched. I am sure you learned alot by doing it and I greatly appreciate your feed back and will think about what you said to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. If I did I apologize I am just going by what I read.
P.s I bolded the above statement only because just this morning I did not realize this. Just writing this lets out things I might not have realized before and helps me put two and two together. The rest of you of course probably already know this. I figured it out becasue I read your statements and I think about what I am going to say to formulate my thoughts. Then it dawned on me the soap that I made many months ago cracked on me when I used it. Didn't think about it till now but I looked back on my notes so starting threads can be a great learning tool and it turns my gears. Thank you and I will read everything that every one has to say and compare notes.

 

[iwannasoap]

How can trace tell you moisture content? If I use full water or 50/50 solution, trace looks and feels the same. Its not at all like mixing water with a dry substance like cement and watching the flow rate or "slump" to determine water content.

Great question and I see you have done some reading. Trace does not tell you moisture content. It tells you lack thereof just like slump tells lack of water or loose water that is not blended. Once those substances join together or emulsifies that means you have a lack of EXCESS moisture or lack of loose water therefore you are in effect using it to tell your moisture content.
And yes, it is like mixing water with a dry substance. Both produce a chemical exothermic reaction. Both are blended or emulsified. If proper emulsification is not produced you will get pools of water which will turn into ash which has to be buffed out. If there are pools of water then that area, just like soap, will not be as strong because it has not been blended as well.

As an example, turn a portion of a batter into a pudding mix and put it in a strainer. Not much water will be lost because it has emulsified. Take the other half of a batter and put that in a strainer. Which will lose more water?

Flow rate is just the beginning to slump or trace and can actually be measured.

I suspect the woman that came up with the word "trace" actually had a husband in construction and she just applied slump to the word "trace"!

 

[iwannasoap]

Soda ash washes off and the underlying soap is just as pretty as it would have been had no soda ash formed on the surface. Anyhow that has been my experience with my soaps.

Regarding gelling time, if a soap reaches full gel, I don't really think it matters how much time it takes. I doubt very much any soap would gel in only 3 minutes, and I am not even sure 3 hours is really enough time either unless you are making pure CO soap. I believe there are more variables than time, amount of water and heat, although they all do play a part. The specific oils and other ingredients within the formula also play a part. For example, 100% coconut oil soap gels very fast and it doesn't seem to matter if one used full water or a higher lye concentration. Comparatively soaps made with high oleic oils tend to take longer to gel, and if not warm enough to start, need some help to get to full gel.

In summary, in my experience water alone is not the only way to control gel.

I agree with you 100% especially on the material used to attain gel and I know what your trying to say. You admit as long is it fully gells it doesn't matter how much time it takes but you also say on the same token that 3 mins (which I exaggerated for effect) is not enough time! Therefore, time is a factor which should be considered if you want gel which means more controlling your water amount by controlling gel. Of course the oils matter. But it is easier to control the water because that is constant in every recipe.
IN other words, I agree with you and I am sure you make great soaps and you said it very nicely. Hello from Georgia