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Patience, MzMolly -- I'm workin' on it!

I learned to drive a stick shift car on the streets of my tiny western Iowa hometown. Stalled the poor Chevy out I don't know how many times as I tried to get my clutch foot and my gas foot coordinated. It was awful! I practiced alone one day until I GOT IT. I wouldn't do this with my dad in the car, cuz me and my dad were like oil and water when he first tried to teach me to drive. Too high of expectations in too short of a time. I had to teach myself at first until I got a clue. After that, driving with him in the passenger's seat was okay -- I was over the hump of figuring things out and could handle his high expectations.
 
I think I get it -

So I take my batch size (1kg for ease) and work out 5% of that (50g).

Make a calc based on a 950gm batch (1kg - 50g) WITH OUT my SF fat but with a modest SF for errors, say 2%.

This gives me the info I need to make the 950gm batch to which I add my SF fat after the cook, making it a 1kg batch with a 7% SF (2% from the error correction, 5% from my real SF fat)

Do I get a credit or demerit?
 
Do I get a credit or demerit?

ooo ooo .. teacher!!! teacher!!! .. raises hand.

I think you're close Gent but I don't think it's 100% correct.

So let me see if I've got it now.

You soap calc the batch with the main oils (say OO and CO) leaving out the special oil you want as superfat (lets say SB) and with superfat entered as 1% or so and you write down that lye number.

Then .. rather than just put the SB in at the end of the cook .. you have to put the numbers back in soap calc .. this time INCLUDE the SB and enter your superfat as you want it (8% or whatever) but watch the lye number. It won't be the same as your first lye number.

So then you adjust your SB weight up and down until you get the lye number that matches the original lye number you wrote down earlier.

That's the amount of oils and lye you'll use in the cook, keeping out the superfat oil until the end.

Here's my example math using DeeAnna's method in Soap calc:

I entered 1000g, left water at default 38%, superfat at 1% and entered 500g of OO and 500G of CO .. Soap calc gave me a lye number of 157.765

Then, I entered, 38% water, superfat 8%, OO 500g, CO 500g and guessed a SB g weight of 200 g. Soap calc gives me a lye number of170.093 but I need to make that match the previous lye number.

I kept adjusting the weight of the SB until I got 94.5g of SB and a lye number of 157.706g. I stopped there.

Soooo .. when I cook up my batch I use 500g of OO and 500g of CO and the original lye of 157.765 and after the cook when it's not zappy I add the 94.5g of SB.

Is that right Teach? Or maybe I'll be getting the demerit LOL!!
 
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A+ grade, MsMolly! Well done ... and bonus points for the awesome explanation!

My dear Gent ... you used S&D's method, but try again with MsMolly's method or CS and Grayce's method. I think they're spot on.

My stepson who's visiting this weekend, my sweet hubby, and I just got done with a pleasant evening eating soft tacos/burritos and playing 500. I haven't forgotten about y'all ... but family came first tonight.
 
but family came first tonight.

.. as they should. Thanks for stopping in long enough to grade the papers! LOL

More questions arise for anyone who's done this .. what happens to the oil when it's added in after the cook? Will it still mix in to become part of the soap or will it sit separately like some surface oil slick?

I know I'll find out when I try this but I'm curious what to expect.
 
.. as they should. Thanks for stopping in long enough to grade the papers! LOL

More questions arise for anyone who's done this .. what happens to the oil when it's added in after the cook? Will it still mix in to become part of the soap or will it sit separately like some surface oil slick?

I know I'll find out when I try this but I'm curious what to expect.

MzMolly -- Yay! You got it!

If it's a solid oil, I usually melt it first, to let it mix in easier, but in general it will mix in just fine, with a spatula or possibly a whisk, same as mixing in your scents, and it will actually make your cooked soap batter a bit easier to get into the mold too. Don't mix in too much air, and don't let it cool too much while you mix, but just mix the oil in thoroughly and get it in the mold. :)

DeeAnna -- Enjoy family time! :) It's a precious thing.
And also, awesome that you're able to teach! I am a terrible teacher. I tend to just take over and be like "Here, let me do it" lol I am too impatient and too easily frustrated. lol

Gent -- with the CS method, you've got your lye amount necessary to saponify your main oils at 1% or whichever low SF number you chose. That's the lye amount your recipe is going to actually use.

When you divide that amount by the .92 or whatever decimal equivalent represents how much SF you want (in the example, 8% ) then it gives you the higher lye amount that would have been needed if you wanted to completely saponify ALL your oils, not just your main recipe oils.

Ok, so you take the difference between those two lye amounts, and that is the tiny little amount of lye that would have been needed to saponify your specific amount of superfat oils.

So if you take that little number, and divide it by the SAP number of a given oil, it tells you how much oil would have been saponified by that amount of lye, if you had used that amount of lye.

But since you're not using that little extra bit of lye, you're discounting it, then that amount of oil is superfat.

You can see how different the amounts of some oils would be at 8% SF by taking that same little extra lye number and dividing it by a bunch of different SAP numbers to see what you come up with. Try it! :)
 
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Here is my belated explanation. I'm going to use this recipe as an example:

Coconut oil 200 g (soaping fat)
Lard 200 g (soaping fat)
Olive 200 g (soaping fat)
Meadowfoam seed oil 66 g (superfat)
NaOH 92.0 g
Water as needed for your preference

Now if you've been following the entire thread, we found, using Grayce and CS's method, that 66 g of meadowfoam added after the HP cook represents an 8% superfat for this recipe. Huh? What's that? If I take 8% of 666 g, that is 53.4 g, not 66 g!!! (The math: (200 + 200 + 200 + 66) * 0.08 = 53.4) Where in the heck is that 66 g coming from -- that's 10% of the total fats!

Yep, you're right ... that's 10% of the FATS. But superfat is all about the LYE, not the fat.

****

Let's take a step back for a moment and look at this recipe as a CP soap, where all of the fats are mixed together before the lye is added. The superfat in this case is whatever fat is left over after the lye gets done "eating". The math is simple because all of the fats are mixed together, and the saponification value (SV) of the mixed fat is just one averaged number.

In the example recipe, the average SV is 0.150 grams of NaOH per gram of mixed fat. When made as a "mixed fat" CP soap, 8% of the mixed FAT in the recipe uses 8% of the LYE. So if we want 8% of the fat to be unsaponified, we just use 8% less lye than is needed to saponify all of the fat. The first picture is a diagram of how this works.

This is exactly what soapcalc does when you set the lye discount for a recipe at anything other than zero. And this is the method that Songwind and I first proposed in this thread. It works fine for CP soap. This method also works find for HP soap where all the fat is mixed together in the beginning, just like CP soap. With these "mixed fat" methods, the superfat left over is just what's left over from the original fat mixture.

***

The second diagram shows how much lye each fat needs to saponify. The CO is 30% of the fat, but it needs a whopping 37% of the lye to saponify. The meadowfoam is 10% of the fat in the recipe, but it uses only 8% of the total lye.

****

Now let's assume the example recipe is made using the "add a special fat after the cook" kind of HP method. The superfat is then just that one special fat, not a mixture of all the fats in the recipe.

The first step is to figure out AT ZERO SUPERFAT, how much of the special fat will consume 8% of the total lye weight. Because the saponification value is different for each fat, the % of the lye used varies from fat to fat -- the second picture shows what's going on for the example recipe.

I want to point out here that the superfat calculated is always based on the weight of LYE required to saponify the superfat. This is just as true when calculating the superfat for the simple "mixed fat" CP and HP methods (above) as it is for this more complicated "add a special fat after the cook" HP method.

If a soap maker is creating a new recipe using the "add a special fat after the cook" HP method, she (or he) won't know the weight of the special fat. Because she doesn't know the weight of the special fat, she doesn't know the total weight of the fats and doesn't know the total lye weight. UGH!

What information would the soap maker know? She would know the desired superfat percentage, the weights of the soaping fats, the specific "special fat" to be added, and the saponification values of all the fats. There is enough information to solve the problem, but the solution is messy -- it will require Grayce's algebra or my trial-and-error solution to find the weight of the "special fat".

Once the "special fat" weight is known, we can add up the weight of all the oils to get the total weight. We also know the lye amount to saponify ALL the oils at ZERO superfat, but that's really not needed anymore. Throw out that number and refigure the lye to saponify ONLY the soaping oils at ZERO (or very low) superfat. Make the soap with the soaping oils and that amount of lye. Add the correct weight of the "special fat" after the cook, and you're done!

****

Okay, let me know if this makes sense!

Image4.jpg


Image3.jpg
 
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DeAnna, I was able to follow Gracey's equations, but not yours! :(

Now, I do have a very basic question, one that (to me) affects how one approaches the question. When we're talking about an 8% superfat, do we mean...

A) An extra 8% of fats on top of the amount to be saponified, leaving us with a total of 108% fats for the recipe,

or

B) 8% of the TOTAL number of fats in the recipe, meaning only 92% are saponified?

Those will leave you with slightly different amounts of fat in the superfat, and will change the way you approach figuring out what that "8%" is.
 
Okay, let me know if this makes sense!

It feels like being in Church .. I really don't know exactly why I'm supposed to kneel now but this is when you kneel .. so I'm kneeling :wave:

In other words I understand the mechanics of it and how to accomplish it but not the science behind the why and how of it.
 
Star -- You can look at this problem from either direction, as long as your math is correct throughout. I'm choosing to look at the superfat as a portion of the whole. That is also the way Grayce and CS are looking at it too.

Total fat weight = Soaping fat weight(s) + Superfat weight

Total lye weight = Lye wt. needed to saponify each soaping fat + Lye wt. to saponify the superfat

Lye weight needed to saponify a fat = Weight of fat * Saponification value of the fat
 
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Sometimes when I'm teaching a concept to students, I don't present all the detailed whys and wherefores right off the bat. We just focus on the basics. Once the basics are down, I add more layers of information to create a more accurate picture. If you and I could work together in person, MsMolly, I might be able to work with you to do that because I could understand better what is confusing you. As it is, the lag time in communication, the lack of face to face interaction, and the limitations of the printed word are failing me.

I also just read that you broke your foot earlier this week. Yowser -- I hope your not too miserable!
 
Here's an analogy that might help. I hope, anyway....

You have 9 friends over, and you want to buy enough food to feed them and yourself. You figure the 5 guys are going to eat 2 hamburgers apiece. The 5 girls (including you) will all eat 1 burger apiece. So 15 burgers, right? But you make a mistake and make only 13 burgers for the party!

So who is going to go hungry? One of the guys might not get his two burgers. Or two of the girls each might not get one. Either way, someone is going hungry.

So, okay, pretend the guys are a high saponification value (SV) fat like coconut oil, and each of the guys wants to eat two burger's worth of lye before he's satisfied (or saponified). The girls are a low SV fat like meadowfoam -- they each need only one burger's worth of lye to be full.

Given that your "soap party" has 10 people in it, they would like to eat 15 lye burgers, and you've only made 13 lye burgers. What's going to happen -- Who's not going to eat? How are you going to solve this problem without making someone unhappy?

If one guy's worth of coconut oil comes late to the party after everyone else is done eating, you will have enough lye burgers for everyone else. If two girls' worth of meadowfoam come late instead, you'll also be okay. That's not a bad strategy if you have friends who are often fashionably late. This would be your "add the special fat after the cook" method of HP.

Another way to stretch your 13 lye burgers is to frantically make each of the burgers a little bit smaller, so you end up with 15 downsized burgers to feed everyone. The coconut oil guys and the meadowfoam girls all get something to eat, but each person doesn't get quite as much lye burger as he or she would prefer. This is closer to the "mixed fat all goes in the pot" method.
 
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Star -- You can look at this problem from either direction, as long as your math is correct throughout. I'm choosing to look at the superfat as a portion of the whole. That is also the way Grayce and CS are looking at it too.

Total fat weight = Soaping fat weight(s) + Superfat weight

Total lye weight = Lye wt. needed to saponify each soaping fat + Lye wt. to saponify the superfat

Lye weight needed to saponify a fat = Weight of fat * Saponification value of the fat

See, this matches up with what was going on in my head. I have no idea why I was getting all twisted around and confused in post #28.

And to get the weight of the superfat in the third equation, you would do just a little algebraic reorganizing to put the SF oil's lye weight and the oil's SAP value on the same side.
 
"...you would do just a little algebraic reorganizing..."

Yep, you're right, and it's obvious you know enough algebra to do this without a lot of tutoring. But many people are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with algebra. If I can help folks reach their goals, even if the methods I suggest or the examples I give avoid the use of algebra, then I'll sure give it a try.
 
I guess it's all those math and science classes I took. LOL I just 'see' things better as equations than huge blocks of text.

And I still like to write out my calculations by hand, just to make sure I'm following the steps properly. It's the only think I like to write by hand--everything else is digitized!
 
Now, I do have a very basic question, one that (to me) affects how one approaches the question. When we're talking about an 8% superfat, do we mean...

A) An extra 8% of fats on top of the amount to be saponified, leaving us with a total of 108% fats for the recipe,

or

B) 8% of the TOTAL number of fats in the recipe, meaning only 92% are saponified?

Those will leave you with slightly different amounts of fat in the superfat, and will change the way you approach figuring out what that "8%" is.


Like DeeAnna mentioned, the SF amount has to do with HOW MUCH OIL THE LYE WILL SAPONIFY rather than being based on a % of oils in the recipe. It is in reality, not an excess of oils, but a discount on the lye.

Which is why in the equation, you are taking the original lye amount and giving it 8% more, and finding the difference between the two amounts. that difference is the 8% of lye that you will use to figure out how much oil you need.

Although your question is a lot like my question earlier, which I'll figure out how to re-word in a minute.


OKAY, here goes.

Also, I reread the CS page, and I understand now why she used LYEAMT/(1-.XX) instead of LYEAMT + X%. The second one assumes that the LYEAMT is the 100% needed to do the whole recipe. Whereas we do not know that amount yet, because we don't know how much our special SF oil will weigh yet. And yet we can't figure out that weight unless we know the total lye amount. Convoluted, yes? lol

Because the CS says we are adding our special oil representing X% of the lye to saponify ALL the oils fully, meaning that the base recipe oils represent the remainder. So if we are wanting to add enough oils to cause an 8% lye discount, then the amount of lye needed to saponify the WHOLE recipe, is 8% plus 92% to make 100% of the amount of lye for the whole recipe.

But we don't know the whole recipe yet, because we don't know how much the SF oil will weigh.

So we have to find the lye amount for the base oils instead, which will only be the 92% of the total lye amount. Once we know THAT lye amount, we can find out how much the 8% of the lye amount is to make up the full 100%. Once we know that 8%, then we can see how much oil that will saponify.

So, it's 100% minus the percentage we want to not be saponified, is the percentage of lye used in our base recipe. NOT 100% plus an additional percentage.

THAT is the difference I was trying to figure out, and I have no idea if I've made a mess of the explanation or not, but I TOLD Y'ALL I am NOT a teacher! lol

(this is the point where I would say "just do the steps and get the answer" and "because I said so" lol)
 
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