% Of Sodium Citrate

[Sima]

Hey everyone, newbie here, I have been making soap for sometime after having so many skin problems. I am trying to solve soap scum issue, thinking of using sodium citrate. I googled it and found the most reasonable price at Bulk Supplements, I am trying to mange my expenses because this hobby is very expensive. When I checked the label I found every 3 grams serving size contains 600 mg of sodium as sodium citrate, calculating this is a little confusing to me. If this source doesn't work for soap making, where do you advise me to buy it from?
Thanks!

 

[Johnez]

Hey everyone, newbie here, I have been making soap for sometime after having so many skin problems. I am trying to solve soap scum issue, thinking of using sodium citrate. I googled it and found the most reasonable price at Bulk Supplements, I am trying to mange my expenses because this hobby is very expensive. When I checked the label I found every 3 grams serving size contains 600 mg of sodium as sodium citrate, calculating this is a little confusing to me. If this source doesn't work for soap making, where do you advise me to buy it from?
Thanks!

The nutrition label specifically states zero other ingredients, it appears it's all sodium citrate. By weight the sodium part by itself is what's counted on the nutritional label, I don't think you need to do any additional calculations here.

 

[AliOop]

...I don't think you need to do any additional calculations here (except for adjusting lye to account for the acidity).

I believe you are confusing sodium citrate with citric acid. Sodium citrate does not require any lye adjustment; citric acid does require a lye adjustment.

ETA: @Sima the sodium citrate from Bulk Supplements is fine. I've used it before with no issues, and simply calculated it in my recipe as sodium citrate. I tend to use it at 1% of oils, but you can go higher if needed for really hard water.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

This one? Sodium Citrate

Trisodium citrate pentahydrate contains 19.8% sodium (595 mg per 3 g, close enough to the advertised 600 mg), so this is what you have here. You're fine with this one, no lye adjustment needed!
Just dissolve it in the batch water first, prior to the lye, otherwise it might need too long or doesn't fully dissolve.

That said, it still appears quite expensive to me, even the 1 kg bag. It is equivalent to 552 g citric acid (anhydrous), but for the US$21.96 I could as well buy six times that amount of citric acid (kettle descaler) from my local drugstore.

 

[Johnez]

I believe you are confusing sodium citrate with citric acid. Sodium citrate does not require any lye adjustment; citric acid does require a lye adjustment.

ETA: @Sima the sodium citrate from Bulk Supplements is fine. I've used it before with no issues, and simply calculated it in my recipe as sodium citrate. I tend to use it at 1% of oils, but you can go higher if needed for really hard water.

Thanks for the correction! Edited my post.

 

[Sima]

The nutrition label specifically states zero other ingredients, it appears it's all sodium citrate. By weight the sodium part by itself is what's counted on the nutritional label, I don't think you need to do any additional calculations here.

That's much easier.
Thank you!

 

[Sima]

This one? Sodium Citrate

Trisodium citrate pentahydrate contains 19.8% sodium (595 mg per 3 g, close enough to the advertised 600 mg), so this is what you have here. You're fine with this one, no lye adjustment needed!
Just dissolve it in the batch water first, prior to the lye, otherwise it might need too long or doesn't fully dissolve.

That said, it still appears quite expensive to me, even the 1 kg bag. It is equivalent to 552 g citric acid (anhydrous), but for the US$21.96 I could as well buy six times that amount of citric acid (kettle descaler) from my local drugstore.

You mean I can use the same water for dissolving the lye? I wonder if I can use it for additives then blend it with oils.
May I ask what's the difference between citric acid (anhydrous) and regular citric acid?
I think I'll stick to the one with less calculation. Thank you!

 

[Sima]

I believe you are confusing sodium citrate with citric acid. Sodium citrate does not require any lye adjustment; citric acid does require a lye adjustment.

ETA: @Sima the sodium citrate from Bulk Supplements is fine. I've used it before with no issues, and simply calculated it in my recipe as sodium citrate. I tend to use it at 1% of oils, but you can go higher if needed for really hard water.

Thank you! I'm going to experiment with % until find my sweet spot.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

You mean I can use the same water for dissolving the lye? I wonder if I can use it for additives then blend it with oils.

Oils and water (or dilute citric acid in this case) don't mix. Even oils and concentrated lye don't mix instantly, only after some soap has built up (“stable emulsion”). IMHO it's better for water-soluble additives to go with the lye water, since you only have one emulsion to SB, not two (oil+additives, then oil+additives+lye). There are things like split-batter methods and crazy stuff with lye masterbatch, but from the emulsion point of view, they have no advantage over having citrate in the lye (i. e. dissolve the NaOH crystals in dilute citric acid and/or sodium citrate solution).

May I ask what's the difference between citric acid (anhydrous) and regular citric acid?
I think I'll stick to the one with less calculation. Thank you!

The citric acid molecule can combine with different numbers of water molecules to form crystals. Anhydrous citric acid is just the pure acid itself. The monohydrate (the more commonly found form) has 1 molecule of water bound to each citric acid molecule, so although it appears dry, it still contains 9% water.
Once dissolved, there is no difference between the two, but you have to measure more of the hydrate, to make up for the water of crystallisation.

You have to do the math in any case. One gram of NaOH neutralises 1.60 g of anhydrous citric acid, but 1.75 g of the monohydrate, but in both cases the equivalent of 3.05 g trisodium citrate pentahydrate is formed.

 

[Gaisy59]

Just an FYI there is a recipe on the forum that details how to make your own sodium citrate which i do use. Unfortunately I don’t remember who posted it

 

[Gaisy59]

Ah if you search shewearsfunnyhat and sodium citrate there is a very good video that was posted.

 

[RDak]

This one? Sodium Citrate

Trisodium citrate pentahydrate contains 19.8% sodium (595 mg per 3 g, close enough to the advertised 600 mg), so this is what you have here. You're fine with this one, no lye adjustment needed!
Just dissolve it in the batch water first, prior to the lye, otherwise it might need too long or doesn't fully dissolve.

That said, it still appears quite expensive to me, even the 1 kg bag. It is equivalent to 552 g citric acid (anhydrous), but for the US$21.96 I could as well buy six times that amount of citric acid (kettle descaler) from my local drugstore.

This and yes, way too expensive.

You can buy 5lb here for roughly $19 (including shipping):

Ebay

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Good find. They even state that it's the dihydrate, and don't let customers guess/reverse-engineer the water of crystallisation.

 

[Sima]

Oils and water (or dilute citric acid in this case) don't mix. Even oils and concentrated lye don't mix instantly, only after some soap has built up (“stable emulsion”). IMHO it's better for water-soluble additives to go with the lye water, since you only have one emulsion to SB, not two (oil+additives, then oil+additives+lye). There are things like split-batter methods and crazy stuff with lye masterbatch, but from the emulsion point of view, they have no advantage over having citrate in the lye (i. e. dissolve the NaOH crystals in dilute citric acid and/or sodium citrate solution).

Thank you, this is easier, I like it!

The citric acid molecule can combine with different numbers of water molecules to form crystals. Anhydrous citric acid is just the pure acid itself. The monohydrate (the more commonly found form) has 1 molecule of water bound to each citric acid molecule, so although it appears dry, it still contains 9% water.
Once dissolved, there is no difference between the two, but you have to measure more of the hydrate, to make up for the water of crystallisation.

You have to do the math in any case. One gram of NaOH neutralises 1.60 g of anhydrous citric acid, but 1.75 g of the monohydrate, but in both cases the equivalent of 3.05 g trisodium citrate pentahydrate is formed.

Does this mean that the anhydrous citric acid may not expire since it's pure acid?
I have a small amount of anhydrous citric acid, I don't remember when I bought it, I wanted to try my hands at making some bath bombs but I didn't know how to use it to make them.
Thanks for the info. I saved them.

 

[Sima]

Just an FYI there is a recipe on the forum that details how to make your own sodium citrate which i do use. Unfortunately I don’t remember who posted it

I'll look it up.
Thank you!

 

[Sima]

This and yes, way too expensive.

You can buy 5lb here for roughly $19 (including shipping):

Ebay

You are right, it's very expensive. Thank you!
Edited to ask how to handle this amount? I guess this will go long way, should I divide it into smaller containers? plastic or glass? Does it have expiration date?

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Does this mean that the anhydrous citric acid may not expire since it's pure acid?
I have a small amount of anhydrous citric acid, I don't remember when I bought it

As long as stored air-tight, neither the anhydrous nor the monohydrate goes bad. Point is, the anhydrous form might pull water from the air, and the monohydrate might lose water of crystallisation to the air. So if you cannot guarantee absolute isolation (plastic bags can't by 100%), the effective concentration might be off by a few % for either. At usual usage rates (and demands on precision) in soap or bath bombs, this is not a problem though.

 

[Sima]

Good find. They even state that it's the dihydrate, and don't let customers guess/reverse-engineer the water of crystallisation.

Would you explain this?

 

[Sima]

As long as stored air-tight, neither the anhydrous nor the monohydrate goes bad. Point is, the anhydrous form might pull water from the air, and the monohydrate might lose water of crystallisation to the air. So if you cannot guarantee absolute isolation (plastic bags can't by 100%), the effective concentration might be off by a few % for either. At usual usage rates (and demands on precision) in soap or bath bombs, this is not a problem though.

Thank you!

 

[Sima]

Ah if you search shewearsfunnyhat and sodium citrate there is a very good video that was posted.

I found Cook A Chicken in WATERMELON!
I didn't find anything else but food, maybe I am mistaken. Would you pm me the link?