non-tropical oils, animal-free soap recipes

[Fenchurch]

Hi there!
I'm a beginner soaper, but I like to challenge myself in pretty everything I do. Though my first recipes included coconut oil and/or shea butter, I've tried a recipe with non-tropical oils are they are not local for me.
Here are recipes matching (more or less ) these constraints that I've successfully tried:
"Unicorn" recipe (named after the pastel colours):
Sunflower oil: 480g
Olive oil: 120g
sweet almond oil: 250g
Linseed oil: 156g
glycerin: 54.5g as superfat
water: 376g
Additives:
salt: 20g
sugar: 20g
fragrance 20g
Coloured with micas.
This made rather pretty soaps, hard, bubbly and with no visible drawbacks beside unsaponified oils visible inclusions.

The other recipe is the "Princess" one (designed for my nieces who are in love with pink colour and strawberry scents):
Olive oil: 660g
Grapeseed oil: 201g
Sunflower oil: 150g
castor oil: 40g as superfat
water: 330g
Additives: white clay 30g, salf 30g, suger 30g, fragrance 31g, coloured with micas.
I used a modified Pringles tube for the heart-shaped mold.
I'm quite glad with this but for 2 things: the unsaponified inclusions, and the use of castor oil, as it's not grown locally.

Do you have any suggestions to have:
- hard soap but with little OO and no solid oils (are they are all tropical so not local for me).
- light batter so that I can still play with colours (I tried bay laurel oil previously, not thinking it will highly darken the batter).

For the moment I can't see any solution, so either I stick with OO or I accept to use Coconut oil...
BTW I can also use RBO because that grows in the South of France (as well as rapeseed, sunflower, linseed...)

Thanks for reading,
happy bubbles !
Stéphanie

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Hi Stéphanie,

you have some really lovely soap designs there, and they really deserve a recipe with which you and whoever else uses them is happy in the long run!

First to your explicit questions:

- hard soap but with little OO and no solid oils (are they are all tropical so not local for me).
- light batter so that I can still play with colours (I tried bay laurel oil previously, not thinking it will highly darken the batter).

I see only one thing that gives you some recipe headspace, while staying with field crops of temperate climate:
soy wax/hydrogenated vegetable oil (Don't be daunted by the soy focus of that thread, there is canola/rapeseed based wax too). Not only in my experience, they perform noticeably better in making a hard, long lasting bar soap (same effect at lower dosage) than tropical fats (palm, cocoa, shea).

But also be sure to understand the difference between hard/lasting fats (tropical butters, palm oil, lard, tallow, hydrogenated vegetable oils) and bubbly/cleansing/lauric fats (coconut oil, palm kernel oil)!

The hard fats won't add volume to the lather, but they make your soap “melt away” slower under bathroom conditions, and keep the bars hard and firm. Olive oil and rice bran oil are giving their best to substitute them, but they need long curing times for that (see below why this can be an issue).

The “bubbly” lauric oils are hard at room temperature too, and they will make a hard bar of soap – BUT they don't last long, and dissolve quickly. It's unfortunate that most soap calculators advertise a “hardness” number that favours coconut, but doesn't really consider how fast the soap becomes soft and slimy upon water contact. All lauric oils are tropical (except laurel and one strain of genetically modified canola), so you exclude them per your regionality resolution. But they possess properties for which they are usually added into most soap recipes. I've seen you're already on track with mitigating these by lather-improving tricks (castor, sugar). You might also give sorbitol a try, it has a large fan base here.

Unfortunately, there is by any means no replacement for castor oil. But as an excuse, Ricinus also grows in (and is supposed to originate from) a Mediterranean climate.


And now to another issue with your recipes: both are super high in poly-unsaturated fats: from linseed and grapeseed oil, and (unless you use the HO variant) from sunflower in the most troublesome way. It is somewhat consensus that linoleic oils are best off in the cold kitchen, and should be avoided in generous quantities in soap, for several reasons.
One is hardness: poly-unsaturated FAs will make curing a pain, and the soaps never harden up completely, but will be very soft even when dry, and dissolve in water quickly.
Another point is rancidity. High-linoleic oils turn bad rather quickly, that's true for the oils themselves in the same way as the soaps you're making out of them. Nobody likes the stinky, brownish-yellow appearance of DOS, and high superfat levels will worsen this problem. You haven't mentioned addition of ROE/antioxidants and chelators (citrate, EDTA) in your recipes. But unless you throw out all oils but olive, you definitely should take rancidity precautions. With no or little hard/lasting fats, you are dependent on long curing times, so the time interval between “fully cured” and “degrading due to rancidity” is very short.

Using oils with high iodine value (by and large all oils from temperate climates are concerned) in long-lasting recipes is a recurring discussion, that recently escalated in this thread.

 

[Fenchurch]

Hi Stéphanie,

you have some really lovely soap designs there, and they really deserve a recipe with which you and whoever else uses them is happy in the long run!

Owww that's lovely! Thank you!

I see only one thing that gives you some recipe headspace, while staying with field crops of temperate climate:
soy wax/hydrogenated vegetable oil (Don't be daunted by the soy focus of that thread, there is canola/rapeseed based wax too). Not only in my experience, they perform noticeably better in making a hard, long lasting bar soap (same effect at lower dosage) than tropical fats (palm, cocoa, shea).

Thanks for this information and for the link! I'll read it soon.

But also be sure to understand the difference between hard/lasting fats (tropical butters, palm oil, lard, tallow, hydrogenated vegetable oils) and bubbly/cleansing/lauric fats (coconut oil, palm kernel oil)!

The hard fats won't add volume to the lather, but they make your soap “melt away” slower under bathroom conditions, and keep the bars hard and firm. Olive oil and rice bran oil are giving their best to substitute them, but they need long curing times for that (see below why this can be an issue).

The “bubbly” lauric oils are hard at room temperature too, and they will make a hard bar of soap – BUT they don't last long, and dissolve quickly. It's unfortunate that most soap calculators advertise a “hardness” number that favours coconut, but doesn't really consider how fast the soap becomes soft and slimy upon water contact. All lauric oils are tropical (except laurel and one strain of genetically modified canola), so you exclude them per your regionality resolution. But they possess properties for which they are usually added into most soap recipes. I've seen you're already on track with mitigating these by lather-improving tricks (castor, sugar). You might also give sorbitol a try, it has a large fan base here.

Unfortunately, there is by any means no replacement for castor oil. But as an excuse, Ricinus also grows in (and is supposed to originate from) a Mediterranean climate.

Wow. That goes beyond what I was expecting, as insights and advice go... And yeaaaaah I toyed with the idea of Ricinus growing in the Mediterranean climate to bend my rules with it.

And now to another issue with your recipes: both are super high in poly-unsaturated fats: from linseed and grapeseed oil, and (unless you use the HO variant) from sunflower in the most troublesome way. It is somewhat consensus that linoleic oils are best off in the cold kitchen, and should be avoided in generous quantities in soap, for several reasons.

One is hardness: poly-unsaturated FAs will make curing a pain, and the soaps never harden up completely, but will be very soft even when dry, and dissolve in water quickly.

Strangely, I haven't had any issue with cure and hardening: both batches were easy to cut after 24h, and are hard enough when using them. My bathroom may not be a very hot&humid place, though.

Another point is rancidity. High-linoleic oils turn bad rather quickly, that's true for the oils themselves in the same way as the soaps you're making out of them. Nobody likes the stinky, brownish-yellow appearance of DOS, and high superfat levels will worsen this problem. You haven't mentioned addition of ROE/antioxidants and chelators (citrate, EDTA) in your recipes. But unless you throw out all oils but olive, you definitely should take rancidity precautions. With no or little hard/lasting fats, you are dependent on long curing times, so the time interval between “fully cured” and “degrading due to rancidity” is very short.

Yeah that's an unpleasant conundrum! Again I haven't encountered this issue with those batches, but may with my latest...
I haven't added any of ROE/antioxidants nor chelators ever so far. So, yes, I guess I'll have to take precautions against rancidity, even if as I'm not selling my soaps, make them in small quantities and distribute them amongst friends ans family, they are used over a very short period of time.

Using oils with high iodine value (by and large all oils from temperate climates are concerned) in long-lasting recipes is a recurring discussion, that recently escalated in this thread.

I'll have a look at it, too.

Thanks for the time you took providing explanations and advice. I really appreciate it.
Happy bubbles,
Stéphanie

 

[cmzaha]

[I][B]ResolvableOwl[/B][/I] gave you some very good information but forgot to mention, you do not want to add extra glycerin to bar soap or NaOH soap, which forms glycerin naturally during the saponification process. Glycerin is not used as a superfat in bar soap and will only tend to soften your soap causing it to melt faster with use. It is used in making liquid soap.

The spots in your soap I cannot figure out. It looks like something not completely mixed in. Did you dissolve your salt and sugar in your water before adding them to your soap batter? They could be unmixed clay, but it does not look like you used clay in the first soap you posted. You really do not have a very high stearic/palmitic acid recipe to cause stearic spots so big so I am kinda stumped on the spots. I am not buying an un-saponified soap theory of yours, if this was hp I would say dried soap bits or if using milks, it can happen if the milk is mixed with the lye and soap bits start to form in the lye solution. If you mix your salt and sugar directly into your lye solution it will not dissolve and will form crystals, although they usually settle on the bottom of the lye container, maybe they could float long enough to be added to the soap batter in crystal form and for the spots you see. I am just trying to sort out the spots in your soap. Or could too much glycerin separate off the soap as it is hardening and form these spots? That is a good question for DeeAnna. Okay, I am just rambling now.

 

[Fenchurch]

[I][B]ResolvableOwl[/B][/I] gave you some very good information but forgot to mention, you do not want to add extra glycerin to bar soap or NaOH soap, which forms glycerin naturally during the saponification process. Glycerin is not used as a superfat in bar soap and will only tend to soften your soap causing it to melt faster with use. It is used in making liquid soap.

OK, thanks for this information. As I knew it was naturally formed during saponification, I thought it was safe that I use it as superfat for its properties for the skin.

The spots in your soap I cannot figure out. It looks like something not completely mixed in. Did you dissolve your salt and sugar in your water before adding them to your soap batter?They could be unmixed clay, but it does not look like you used clay in the first soap you posted.

Yes, I got it all very well mixed, I dissolved the water and sugar in the water I used for the lye solution. They were well dissolved before I poured the lye into the water... and the first batch doesn't have clay in it. The spots appeared directly after making, I noticed them when cutting. I came to the unsaponified by lack of any other ideas, but I'm far from being able to think of all the possibilities...

You really do not have a very high stearic/palmitic acid recipe to cause stearic spots so big so I am kinda stumped on the spots. I am not buying an un-saponified soap theory of yours, if this was hp I would say dried soap bits or if using milks, it can happen if the milk is mixed with the lye and soap bits start to form in the lye solution. If you mix your salt and sugar directly into your lye solution it will not dissolve and will form crystals, although they usually settle on the bottom of the lye container, maybe they could float long enough to be added to the soap batter in crystal form and for the spots you see. I am just trying to sort out the spots in your soap. Or could too much glycerin separate off the soap as it is hardening and form these spots? That is a good question for DeeAnna. Okay, I am just rambling now.

Well, I'm all ears!

Happy bubbles!
Stéphanie

 

[ResolvableOwl]

I thought it was safe that I use it as superfat for its properties for the skin.

It is a safe addition, but it is not a fat, it won't saponify (eat up lye)! If you laid out the lye quantity to include glycerol “superfat”, then it's a matter of luck if you have any proper superfat at all, or your soap will be slightly lye-heavy (Thank you @cmzaha to bring this up!). At these quantities it

In principle you can add glycerol to soap to your liking, but as you already mentioned, it will be there anyway (about 100 g from the oils), and with your bias towards soft oils, it will worsen the softness, increase solubility even more, and impede curing (glycerol is hygroscopic, i. e. loves water).

 

[Tara_H]

I dissolved the water and sugar in the water I used for the lye solution. They were well dissolved before I poured the lye into the water...

Is it possible that the combination of all these reached saturation and started crystallizing out?

 

[earlene]

Another way to harden your soap is to use rice (rice water, puréed cooked rice &/or very fine rice four.) If you are okay including rice, it might really help if you want to avoid non-locally grown/produced crops. Although not well known around the globe as a French crop, rice is a crop in the Camargue region on the Mediterranean coast of France, according to the International Rice Research Institute (link).

We have several threads here at SMF dedicated to rice soap. I have tried it myself and was quite surprised at how just rice water and puréed rice hardened up a ba of soap that started out quite soft.

And as mentioned already about soybean wax, soybeans are also a crop in France, although I do not know how accessible soy wax is in France. But we also have several threads dedicated to the use of soy wax in soap. Many use it successfully in soap, me included.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hi Stéphanie and Welcome to SMF!

I'm a beginner soaper, but I like to challenge myself in pretty everything I do.

For a beginner, you are amazing! Well done! As for your challenge I have little to add except that it is a BIG one that may take quite a bit of trial & error on your part.

Do you have any suggestions to have:
- hard soap but with little OO and no solid oils (are they are all tropical so not local for me).
- light batter so that I can still play with colours

You might try ZNSC using Almond Oil in place of the Olive Oil in the recipe. I've been soaping since 2003. Early on, I learned that almond oil is a good sub for olive oil. I once had a special request from a customer to make 100% Almond Oil shampoo. I had reservations but I was totally blown away by how nicely that shampoo turned out.

(I tried bay laurel oil previously, not thinking it will highly darken the batter).

That's true. If you make it again, be sure to use "Laurel Berry Fruit Oil", a carrier oil vs. the essential oil of the same name. Both are expensive here. Speaking from experience, Bay laurel oil 20% + Olive oil 80% makes a wonderful soap for sensitive skin called Aleppo" (type) Soap".

For the moment I can't see any solution, so either I stick with OO or I accept to use Coconut oil...
BTW I can also use RBO because that grows in the South of France (as well as rapeseed, sunflower, linseed...)

RBO is also a good choice 50/50 with OO. Make small 500g batches. I would include 5% castor but not sugar because in most cases you don't need it if your formula shows an acceptable degree of bubbles. Clay is a good addition at 1 teaspoon - 1 Tablespoon per 500g to firm up the soap. I use White Kaolin clay to whiten. I think it bumps the lather but have no scientific evidence for that.

TIP FOR COMPARING ONE OIL TO ANOTHER

WISHING YOU THE BEST OF LUCK! HAVE FUN! KEEP US POSTED!

 

[Fenchurch]

It is a safe addition, but it is not a fat, it won't saponify (eat up lye)! If you laid out the lye quantity to include glycerol “superfat”, then it's a matter of luck if you have any proper superfat at all, or your soap will be slightly lye-heavy (Thank you @cmzaha to bring this up!). At these quantities it

Owwww I hadn't thought of THAT! Of course it will not saponify.... As I'm on the safe side, I always ALSO use lye discount AND added oils for superfat. So I guess this batch is rather 5% superfat than 9% I usually aim at!

In principle you can add glycerol to soap to your liking, but as you already mentioned, it will be there anyway (about 100 g from the oils), and with your bias towards soft oils, it will worsen the softness, increase solubility even more, and impede curing (glycerol is hygroscopic, i. e. loves water).

Roger that. Thanks again for this information!
Happy bubbles!
Stéphanie

 

[Fenchurch]

Another way to harden your soap is to use rice (rice water, puréed cooked rice &/or very fine rice four.) If you are okay including rice, it might really help if you want to avoid non-locally grown/produced crops. Although not well known around the globe as a French crop, rice is a crop in the Camargue region on the Mediterranean coast of France, according to the International Rice Research Institute (link).

Yes, French producers are proud of their Camargue rice . Non-GMO Soybean is also prodiced in the South West of France, so I could use it too.

We have several threads here at SMF dedicated to rice soap. I have tried it myself and was quite surprised at how just rice water and puréed rice hardened up a ba of soap that started out quite soft.

And as mentioned already about soybean wax, soybeans are also a crop in France, although I do not know how accessible soy wax is in France. But we also have several threads dedicated to the use of soy wax in soap. Many use it successfully in soap, me included.

Yeah, I'll check for French soybean wax. AS I hadn't hear of soybean WAX, I just don't know for sure.
THANKS for these thoughts, and thanks for the time you took making researches. <3

Happy bubbles,
Stéphanie

 

[Zany_in_CO]

And as mentioned already about soybean wax, soybeans are also a crop in France, although I do not know how accessible soy wax is in France.

Soy wax is fully hydrogenated soybean oil whereas Soybean oil is partially hydrogenated, similar to Crisco Shortening. If you have soybean oil available, I would prefer that to the wax. It adds a creamy feel to the lather. But that's just me.

 

[Fenchurch]

Hi Stéphanie and Welcome to SMF!

For a beginner, you are amazing! Well done! As for your challenge I have little to add except that it is a BIG one that may take quite a bit of trial & error on your part.

Well thank you , though I don't think I deserve all the praise!... I have a habbit of reading a lot before going into something, that and youtube are a hell of a help for beginners. But from the start I wanting to use my own recipes because I like to understand how things work. That kept me busy for days before I could experiment, but well, I also had to buy supplies so it helped waiting!
Well, I still have a lot to learn, obviously and not surprisingly!

You might try ZNSC using Almond Oil in place of the Olive Oil in the recipe. I've been soaping since 2003. Early on, I learned that almond oil is a good sub for olive oil. I once had a special request from a customer to make 100% Almond Oil shampoo. I had reservations but I was totally blown away by how nicely that shampoo turned out.

Thanks for this advice! I'll try it out soon!

That's true. If you make it again, be sure to use "Laurel Berry Fruit Oil", a carrier oil vs. the essential oil of the same name. Both are expensive here. Speaking from experience, Bay laurel oil 20% + Olive oil 80% makes a wonderful soap for sensitive skin called Aleppo" (type) Soap".

yeah, I know of Alep soap. They traditional Alep soap tend to be very dark, due to the use of laurel berry oil I guess. I'm not fond of the scent either, but that can be changed...

RBO is also a good choice 50/50 with OO. Make small 500g batches. I would include 5% castor but not sugar because in most cases you don't need it if your formula shows an acceptable degree of bubbles. Clay is a good addition at 1 teaspoon - 1 Tablespoon per 500g to firm up the soap. I use White Kaolin clay to whiten. I think it bumps the lather but have no scientific evidence for that.

TIP FOR COMPARING ONE OIL TO ANOTHER

Thanks again!

WISHING YOU THE BEST OF LUCK! HAVE FUN! KEEP US POSTED!

That's lovely! I'll keep you all posted, and I particularly enjoy soapmaking for the freedom it gives at all stages - recipe, scent, shape, colours... with some nice constraints that, as always with constraints, boost creativity...
THANKS again & Happy bubbles!

Stéphanie

 

[Fenchurch]

Soy wax is fully hydrogenated soybean oil whereas Soybean oil is partially hydrogenated, similar to Crisco Shortening. If you have soybean oil available, I would prefer that to the wax. It adds a creamy feel to the lather. But that's just me.

Well NOW I'm confused!
(To) wax, or not (to) wax, that is the question...

Happy bubbles!
Stéphanie

 

[earlene]

Soy wax is fully hydrogenated soybean oil whereas Soybean oil is partially hydrogenated, similar to Crisco Shortening. If you have soybean oil available, I would prefer that to the wax. It adds a creamy feel to the lather. But that's just me.

I don't think that is quite accurate. Soybean oil is a liquid, not even a partially hardened oil. Hydrogenation produces a solid or in the case of partial hydrogenation, a spreadable oil, like margarine. Plain liquid Soybean oil is not hydrogenated.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I don't think that is quite accurate. Soybean oil is a liquid, not even a partially hardened oil. Hydrogenation produces a solid or in the case of partial hydrogenation, a spreadable oil, like margarine. Plain liquid Soybean oil is not hydrogenated.

Maybe this will help... SoapCalc shows 3 types of soybean oil:

The first is liquid; the 2nd is Crisco-like; the 3rd is soy wax.
Back in 2008 Crisco was made with soybean and cottonseed oils.
I used to buy partially hydrogenated soy at Costco. Here's a thread that discusses it:
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRISCO & 27% HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL

 

[earlene]

Maybe this will help... SoapCalc shows 3 types of soybean oil:
View attachment 56285
The first is liquid; the 2nd is Crisco-like; the 3rd is soy wax.
Back in 2008 Crisco was made with soybean and cottonseed oils.
I used to buy partially hydrogenated soy at Costco. Here's a thread that discusses it:
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRISCO & 27% HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL

Exactly. This supports what I said. Soybean oil is liquid, and not partially hydrogenated. Partially hydrogenated soybean oil is not liquid, but 'hard' like margarine or shortening.

I know about the 3 listings of soy in many (but not all) calculators, but your statement I quoted above in post #12 appears to contradict the fact that 'soybean oil' as listed in the calculators is a liquid oil. The partially hydrogenated oil is a hard oil, yes, we agree on that. But to me it just seemed a little confusing to say "soybean oil is partially hydrogenated, like ... shortening" and then go on to say you preferred soybean oil (when I think you meant the shortening and not the liquid). I doubt you meant to confuse (you never mean to, I am sure of that), but by not clarifying that soybean oil is a liquid, and that the other two listings are hard oils, that is how it reads to my mind. If I didn't know this already and I were new to soapmaking, I would find that statement confusing, especially if I were using a calculator that ONLY lists soybean oil.


As an aside, it has become so common that trans-fats are being eliminated from our diets, both here and abroad, thatproduction of partially hydrogenated fats are being & in some countries have already been phased out. Therefore, partially hydrogenated oils are already difficult for many soap makers to find. The day is coming when that partially hydrogenated soy listing on calculators will be an artifact. (link)

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Exactly. This supports what I said. Soybean oil is liquid, and not partially hydrogenated. Partially hydrogenated soybean oil is not liquid, but 'hard' like margarine or shortening.

Mea culpa. My bad. To be honest, I'm not familiar with "liquid soybean oil" but I will look for it the next time I'm at the store. That's what made me respond as I did.

"Soybean Oil", to my mind at least, was always solid -- from the time I first started soaping it Lo, those many years ago. It was always available at Costco and that's what I used, mainly after Crisco changed formula, if memory serves. I liked the creamy lather.

FWIW, Soy wax wasn't listed on SoapCalc until a few years ago when chandlers started making soy wax candles and soapers started using it in soap. Here is a thread about Soy Wax use back in 2003. At that time, I think the ONLY option was Soybean Oil (27.5% hydrogenated) because that's what showed up on the printout of the recipe where I used soy wax. You may remember it differently. ???

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Deleeted. Double post.

 

[Fenchurch]

Thank you both for this new insight!

I'll have to digest that and the implications...

Happy bubbles!
Stéphanie