Non gel help

[mavalia]

So if you don't want the soap to gel, do you stick the mould into the fridge or freezer directly after pouring?

I think I got a partial gel today with the beer soap I made. It didn't look very nice because some parts looked waxier than the others. Funny thing was that I had some leftover soap batter, which I put into the individual moulds. They were the ones that ended up looking not so nice and the overall colour of the soap was paler in comparison to the batch I made in the silicone log mould.

 

[Fragola]

Yes, but depends on your recipe and method. I've heard that some soaps can gel in the fridge.

You will have to learn if you recipe requires 6 hours in the fridge or overnight in the freezer plus 2 days in the fridge.

They were the ones that ended up looking not so nice and the overall colour of the soap was paler in comparison to the batch I made in the silicone log mould.

Yes, gelled soaps have paler colors. You probably can compensate to some extent by adding more colorant.

On the other hand, ungelled white is much whiter

 

[mavalia]

Yes, but depends on your recipe and method. I've heard that some soaps can gel in the fridge.

You will have to learn if you recipe requires 6 hours in the fridge or overnight in the freezer plus 2 days in the fridge.

They were the ones that ended up looking not so nice and the overall colour of the soap was paler in comparison to the batch I made in the silicone log mould.

Yes, gelled soaps have paler colors. You probably can compensate to some extent by adding more colorant.

On the other hand, ungelled white is much whiter

This is what the soap looked like. I didn't add any colourant to the soap so it looks... not very nice.

 

[Fragola]

My bad ! I mean that ungelled looks more pale.

For the picture you showed, the pale color looks better to me.

 

[carebear]

I get pink with soy shortening. Just a hint.

 

[carebear]

Yes, but depends on your recipe and method. I've heard that some soaps can gel in the fridge.

You will have to learn if you recipe requires 6 hours in the fridge or overnight in the freezer plus 2 days in the fridge.

And it still may not prevent gel.

 

[ericllucas]

I get pink with soy shortening. Just a hint.

Crisco makes a strangely pinkish bar - must be all the soybean oil in there.

 

[soapbuddy]

Okay, I'm going to quit wondering and just ask...why would you want to stop the soap from gelling? I thought gelling was a natural and necessary part of the process, but it obviously must not be.

Why not let it gel?

Soap does not need to gel in order for it to become soap. Colors stay lighter and I can use less fragrance.

 

[ericllucas]

Here is why I thought gelling was an additional chemical process. When I mix lye/water and oils, the temp is in the 110 degrees F range. When it traces, I pour it in the mold. It is around 100 degrees F at that point. A half-hour later, it is 160 degrees in the mold. Now, that heat energy has to be coming from somewhere. I made the assumption that there is a post-blending exothermic reaction taking place called gelling.

If gelling isn't a chemical process, and gelling isn't therefore causing the increase in temp while in the mold, what is causing the increase in batter temp after molding?

Refrigerating the molded soap after pouring would, according to my tenth grade chemistry, slow that exothermic chemical reaction. By keeping that reaction slow (and thus cool), there would be little heat to damage FO, cause EO to evaporate, and cause discoloration of the batter.

Nonetheless, the post-molding chemical reaction is still taking place. The rate of the reaction is being mitigated by the coolness of the refrigerator. Therefore, according to my twisted viewpoint, one does not stop or prevent gelling (that exothermic reaction), one merely slows it and keeps the heat generated at a level below that which would otherwise hurt FO/EO and coloration.

How far off am I?

 

[IrishLass]

This link might help (it's an excerpt from Dr. Kevin Dunn's book 'Scientific Soapmaking' in regards to time and temp and the phases of soap, including the 'neat' or gel phase):

http://books.google.com/books?id=DL0d6A ... se&f=false

IrishLass

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

I make only goat's milk soaps (for now), and my experience with gelling has been mixed, at best:

If it DOES go to full gel, then about 50% of the time, it comes out fine. About 30% of the time, it gets spongy/crystallized in the top 1/3 of the log, toward the center. The remaining 20% of the time, it separates, and I become very sad, like Eeyore, for a couple of days (especially if it had patchouli in it... that just hurts). Yesterday's batch falls into this last category, and today I am sad. I don't re-batch separated batches, because they are stinky.

It also seems that slight overheating is the condition that causes the separation, but the most powerful overheats are what cause the crystallization. If you're gonna blow it, go way over the top! It's ugly, but at least you can use the spongy stuff. But badly separated soaps are just nasty.

However, if it does NOT gel, or only partially gels, where there is about a centimeter of un-gelled skin on top, then it always comes out perfect. Always. Because of this, I leave it uncovered for the first couple of hours, but that's not always enough.

So, I don't like to see it go to full gel, and I get nervous about partial gel that almost gets through the skin. I think milk soaps are more prone to separation problems when they gel, but I have not yet found out why.

I'd really like some input from the experts here on separation, as related to heat, liquid percentage, milk usage, and degree of trace at pour. Yesterday's batch wasn't any hotter than normal (soaped at about 115F), but I did have a little more liquid than usual (25% total milk and water, I do split batch, and usually go with 22% liquid - not a big difference, but maybe enough), and poured at a thin-to-medium trace. I was trying to counteract cinnamon seize, but ended up with a total loss of 10 lbs of goodness. The world is a poorer place...

 

[K Rex]

Gel, meh.

What exactly are the benefits of letting a cold process soap overheat? So your scent can mutate? You prefer the mud-colors attendant thereto?

Newb.

Heh,

Kev

 

[Lady Scrubbins]

I don't overheat it anymore. I also don't get separation, sponginess, or off flavors anymore. Huh...

In Scientific Soapmaking, there is a lot of emphasis on trying to get a full gel, and all sorts of chemistry behind the sentiment. But as K Rex points out (hi Kev), and it has been my experience as well, that overheating / full gel does have a tendency to burn off or "mutate" the more delicate essential oils, darken the soap, and cause sponginess and separations, but it does create a noticeably harder finished product. Not sure if the hardness is worth it. I've been much happier since I abandoned the science and starting soaping colder, especially when using essentials that tend to heat up.

 

[Fran2]

Hi All the Newbie,

Reading through this post does sugar in the lye water really create bubbles? I was using castor for the extra bubbles. I thought castor was moisterizing too. But I did notice it made alot of bubbles. At least a bar that has 7 ozs of castor, but that soap is a bit soap.

Do you all like castor in soap making? I think it makes the soap a bit soft, but was hoping it will harden up once it is dry.

My usually receipe is like:

18 OO
16 CO
16 Palm
7 Shea
2-4 ozs of Castor

How does that look. I am going for one standard recipe, but want a moisturizing, hard, bubbly bar. I am asking for too much? I am leaving out an oil that would make my bar more moisturizing?

 

[Genny]

Hi All the Newbie,

Reading through this post does sugar in the lye water really create bubbles? I was using castor for the extra bubbles. I thought castor was moisterizing too. But I did notice it made alot of bubbles. At least a bar that has 7 ozs of castor, but that soap is a bit soap.

Do you all like castor in soap making? I think it makes the soap a bit soft, but was hoping it will harden up once it is dry.

My usually receipe is like:

18 OO
16 CO
16 Palm
7 Shea
2-4 ozs of Castor

How does that look. I am going for one standard recipe, but want a moisturizing, hard, bubbly bar. I am asking for too much? I am leaving out an oil that would make my bar more moisturizing?

When you say hard, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean you want it to be hard right away? Or do you mean that you want it to take longer to dissolve when being used? Adding a bit of stearic acid can help with getting a harder soap.
About 1 TBSP of sugar per lb of oils added to your water before adding lye does help in creating bigger bubbles. Make sure it's fully dissolved though, otherwise you can get a sticky mess once you add the lye. Castor oil helps in creating the lather fluffier and bubblier, but too much and it can make the soap feel sticky and soft. Oddly enough, there have been a couple soapers that have made 100% castor oil soaps & the soaps were very hard and dry very quickly.
I don't use palm oil, so I can't help you with that part.

How high is your superfat? Your superfat is an important part in the moisturizing feeling in soap. There are lots of oils that can help make a more moisturizing soap, but if you have too low of a superfat the soap will be drying.

Here's a couple links on the properties of oils & butters in soap making:
http://www.colebrothers.com/soap/oils.html
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/prop ... aking-oils

 

[Hazel]

According to SoapCalc, your recipe is going to produce a very hard bar but it doesn't appear to be very conditioning.

Soap isn't moisturizing because its function is to remove dirt and oils from the skin. It can be less drying and using a higher superfat will allow for more unsaponified oil for emolliency. Castor is very conditioning, helps to stabilize lather, produces smaller bubbles and creaminess in the lather. I use it at 10% in several recipes. It's a tradeoff - more conditioning , softer bar. However, the soap will still be hard but it will just dissolve faster in the shower. Many of my batches have a hardness range of 36-38. I don't leave them in the shower, I let the bars dry between uses and the bars last for several weeks or longer. Too long at times, I get bored with the same fragrance. You could add sodium lactate to help harden the batches more.

I posted some recipes for more conditioning bars plus I also included the link in the post to SoapQueen's "moisturizing" soap recipe. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=32476

I mention sodium lactate and sugar in the post. I do think sugar helps with bubbly lather. Also, I said I haven't tried the recipes I posted but I have made batches with all the oils and the percentages are very close to what I use. I can say I'm happy with the soap I make although other people might not like the recipes. It's really personal preference.

***I see I'm slow again. Genny's already answered.

 

[Fran2]

Hi Ladies

Thanks for all the info. I will change my recipe


The hardness I am going for is after cure.

I will try with my next batch.

Also I was following a recipe from the soap queen for her salt bars and her super fat is less. MY bars come out cru
crumbly?

Thank you so much!

 

[Hazel]

I haven't seen SQ's salt bar recipe. Do you have a link?

I don't know if this applies in your case but if you wait too long to cut a salt bar loaf, the loaf will crumble as you cut. You have to cut the loaf while it's still warm. This is why I like pouring salt batches into individual cavity molds.

 

[Fran2]

Hi and thank you. Here is the link. For the salt soap. It was cut after 8 hours. It still crumbly. Here is the link. http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body- ... ld-process

 

[Hazel]

8 hours is too long to allow it to set. You have to cut it while it's still warm. Once it's firmed (and it still may be hot so I recommend wearing gloves), you cut it. It's been a long time since I've done a loaf but I know I cut it within a couple of hours after I poured it. However, I use a high percentage of salt approx. 75% so my batches get harder more quickly. If you're using a lower percentage like 25% to 50%, then you can wait longer and allow the loaf to get a little cooler. Salt batches just get crumbly if they get too cool.

Thanks for the link. I think her superfat is too low, too. However, she does have other oils in it which wouldn't make it as drying. However, I still wouldn't use that low of a superfat even if it wasn't a salt bar. I have dry skin so I use a higher superfat for most of my batches.

There have been many discussions about salt bars. Have you looked through the CP section? People have discussed variations and posted recipes.