Next Experiment

[thinkativeone]

I'm still on the quest for the perfect base for all my facial/body soap bars (they are all unscented or rebatched with EOs in the meantime to save on $/until the base is perfected). Thinking of doing a 50/50 OO/CO batch, but I recognize it will be quite stripping with that much CO and will need a lot of superfatting. My last batch I did 75% OO/25% CO and did 8% superfat. It probably would not have hurt to do 12-15%, but it wasn't TOO drying, either...just bordering on it. I wash my hands something like 30 times a day or more so I don't like a stripping bar.

So if doing the 50/50, how does 20% superfat sound? Or should it be more like 15%? :think:

 

[Happysoap]

Personally I never use more than 10% CO in any of my soaps and SF at max 5%. Usually 3%. The one with 10% CO is the gardner's soap. My facial soaps contain no CO at all. Other ingredients do the heavy lifting.
The problem with SF is that high percentages significantly increase the chance of spoilage and reduce the shelflife of the product. That being said, people do love cocounut salt soaps and SF at high percentages. Maybe someone with more experience with CO will weigh in here.

 

[seven]

since i live in the tropics with high humidity, i also prefer low SF value (3-5% usually). the only exception is full co soap with 20% SF, which i love. i don't worry too much with spoilage with the full co soap, as co is one of the oils that can last a long time.

personally, with 50/50 OO/CO, a 20% SF would be too much. i haven't tried making this soap myself, but if i were to do it, i would prolly go with 12-15%. if using milks to replace the water, i would lower the SF, as milks contribute some fat on their own.

i'm still on the quest to find the perfect facial soap myself. i did 2 batches so far, 1 with co (a very low value), 1 w/o. my face prefers the one w/o the co. that said, my face has no problem with a salt bar, which contains 80% co. go figure.

 

[cmzaha]

Personally I never use more than 10% CO in any of my soaps and SF at max 5%. Usually 3%. The one with 10% CO is the gardner's soap. My facial soaps contain no CO at all. Other ingredients do the heavy lifting.
The problem with SF is that high percentages significantly increase the chance of spoilage and reduce the shelflife of the product. That being said, people do love cocounut salt soaps and SF at high percentages. Maybe someone with more experience with CO will weigh in here.

Doing the happy dance to see a fellow soaper that does not superfat high. I usually superfat 3% and have gone lower to the horrors of fellow soapers. My drains simply cannot take the oils and I actually have customers that request no free oils in their soaps. Some customers really do know what they are buying!. I also keep my co very low in all but my men's soaps whom seem to not like the milder less cleansing soap. Those I do with a 15% superfat and I have one I do for an artist that I use 20% so he can get all the goo off his hands.

 

[thinkativeone]

Well, for anyone interested, there is a reason why 50/50. I don't use palm oil. I don't use animal fats. That leaves me with olive and coconut. (I tried plain castile and it was too slimey for me, even after 6 months. So I was told that 20% CO would eliminate slime. That's why I tried 25%.) And I soap with certified organic oils. I know I'm picky; but don't you love it when your favorite supplier for the oil you use the most of decides to talk like they may leave you high and dry? My organic EVOO supplier may (most likely will) be doing this. I bought a bunch of jugs to stock up, but I'd like to make them last. So that's the main reasoning for 50/50. Sounds like 12-15% SF is the way to go. Oh yeah, and I'd love to use shea butter/bulk castor in my soap but I just don't have the funds at the moment for ordering enough to make it worth it from Jedward's. Shipping be crazy. The simpler my base can be, the better - kind of searching for something really good, simple, and versatile enough to be a nice body and facial bar. Then I can build onto it from there.

Also, I have heard other people talk about successfully doing a 50/50 OO/CO bar on here before - it must have been a long time ago. :think:

If it helps, I don't live in the tropics at all. I live in the gloomy, rainy, and mostly cold (during winter - we had the worst snow in years this year) Pacific Northwest part of the states. The only reasoning for my superfatting above 5% is that even with 100% OO soap at 5% my soap felt much too stripping and my hands were very dry. I'd like it to not cause that during winter and the rest of the year.

 

[seven]

just a note that co is considered comedogenic. of course results may vary b/w different types of skin.

 

[neeners]

I've made 50/50 OO and CO before, but it was for a kitchen soap with coffee and coffee grounds, and I think I used 8% SF. it would be WAY too drying for the face, IMO.

ETA: cocoa butter or shea butter adds hardness to the bar. you can also try salt bars with really high SF. I've heard some people like it, but some don't on their face.

 

[thinkativeone]

Seven, I've never heard that it is considered comedogenic before. At least it is not comedogenic so long as it is unrefined, cold-pressed, virgin CO - that is naturally non-comedogenic from all the information I've read. And that type is the only type I use. If I didn't use CO, I would have nothing to make my bars hard without sliminess.

neeners, I can see why 8% would be way too low a SF for a facial bar. Mine need to be good for all around facial/body bar so I will definitely use a higher superfat. 8% wasn't even high enough for me with 25% CO, so I need to go higher.

I don't think salt bars will work for me but may try one someday. Salt forms/derivatives, whether sea salt, epsom, or baking soda, irritate my skin. It makes it itchy and bumpy.

 

[pamielynn]

Jumping in on the coconut being comedogenic - I cannot use it directly on my face, even the virgin version. But once it's turned into soap, I've never had a problem. I put coconut oil in all my soaps (except the one that is coconut free).

 

[shunt2011]

Another one who uses coconut in soap with no issues. I use my 80% CO salt soap on my face and it is in the best condition it's been in most my life.

 

[judymoody]

I would try 30% CO and 70% OO at 10% SF and see how you like it.

 

[thinkativeone]

I may try 30/70 later but last time I did 25 CO and that is just too close to my last recipe. I want to try something way different and see how it effects color/hardness/texture/bubbles when washing. Can always diminish the coconut, but as I said before, another reason for doing this is that I may no longer be able to get the same OO I used to (supplier being a pain). So one reason in doing this is to see if it works, because if it does, that means I can make my OO last longer. Some people on here have said 50/50 can make a great base before. I'll just have to superfat a lot more than 8% this time to adjust. Thinking I'll try 15% but not sure yet. I have never had a batch of mine get DOS yet, however my FIL gave us a bar with canola/coconut and it got DOS in a week, but he doesn't have a proper scale to weigh oils/use soapcalc either so I can't gauge what exactly went wrong with all that. Probably the canola was at fault. I don't use canola.

 

[grayceworks]

I too love salt-bars. They are great on my sensitive face. I use a washcloth with them to get a good lather. This is also a good trick with castile I have noticed lol. Not so slippery when used with a washcloth or puff.

Odd about salts making you itchy? Maybe there was iodine? Some people are sensitive to that...

Epsom salts are actually magnesium sulfate, not one of the sodium salts... the magnesium can actually be absorbed by the skin during a soak which is what makes it so nice for sore muscles.

LOTS of people get irritated skin from baking soda -- like when its used in home-made deodorants. So that's not too surprising.

Something I read about a while ago and tried last month was 100% CO with 20% SF -- not a salt bar though. I tried it -- traced and gelled super-fast and super-hot so if you use individual mold don't fill to the top or they'll overflow during gel -- but they are amazing! Just as with the salt-bars, they are not drying in spite of the high CO content, and they get tons of lather! I don't think I'd try it as a loaf though, unless I watched it every minute until it got hard, to cut it lol.

Umm... I forgot where I was going with this... my brain just went blank. LOL

 

[ca_soap]

Here's a list I ran across when double checking if coconut oil is comedogenic that I felt was worth sharing

http://www.acne.org/comedogenic-list.html

 

[Tienne]

Here's another chart:

http://www.soapnuts.com/noncomo.html

I'm just wondering if the salts of the oils inherit the same comedogenic properties of the oil itself. Most of the info I have come across about it always seems to be addressing just the pure oil and not the sodium salt of said oils.

ETA: I'm wondering if the comedogenic rating of an oil really matters that much after the oil has been saponified. I can appreciate it would matter for lotions and such, but for soaps? There would of course be some unsapped oils left in a CP soap, but for a HP soap where you could choose an appropriate low-comdedogenic oil to SF with? Dunno!

 

[grayceworks]

Good point. Is it still comodogenic once it's turned to soap?

I'm one who can use virgin unrefined CO or Monoi, and my face loves it as a moisturizer, but I cannot use refined, deodorized, or fractionated CO or it breaks out. But I can use deodorized CO in soap and that is just fine on my face in even pure CO soaps and salt bars, even with the high SF of unsaponified oils. Perhaps because little-to-none of the refined CO is remaining on the skin once it's in soap?

 

[Tienne]

I've just tried googling around a bit and in doing so, I came across that for example palm oil has a pretty high rating. (4 out of 5). That being said, one of the most raved about anti-acne soaps I know of (Adovia DSM soap) is made using 80% palm oil. That tells me that the salts of the oils can't really be that much of a concern! (CMIIW)

I also found some more pretty extensive "bad" ratings lists and none of them have the sodium salts listed as all, let alone them being troublesome or to be avoided. Example:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/319593-the-bad-list-comedogenic-ingredients-and-products/

 

[thinkativeone]

I too love salt-bars. They are great on my sensitive face. I use a washcloth with them to get a good lather. This is also a good trick with castile I have noticed lol. Not so slippery when used with a washcloth or puff.

Odd about salts making you itchy? Maybe there was iodine? Some people are sensitive to that...

Epsom salts are actually magnesium sulfate, not one of the sodium salts... the magnesium can actually be absorbed by the skin during a soak which is what makes it so nice for sore muscles.

LOTS of people get irritated skin from baking soda -- like when its used in home-made deodorants. So that's not too surprising.

Something I read about a while ago and tried last month was 100% CO with 20% SF -- not a salt bar though. I tried it -- traced and gelled super-fast and super-hot so if you use individual mold don't fill to the top or they'll overflow during gel -- but they are amazing! Just as with the salt-bars, they are not drying in spite of the high CO content, and they get tons of lather! I don't think I'd try it as a loaf though, unless I watched it every minute until it got hard, to cut it lol.

It's not the slipperiness that bothers me with pure castile, it's the slimey/gooiness. I find bars don't last as long, even with a very long cure of 6+ months. The texture just isn't all that lathery either, and lathering with my hands is an enjoyable experience for me.

No iodine in at least some of those products. I understood that already re: epsom salts not being a sodium salt, but as I tried to explain before - the salts that bother me are salt/salt-derived/salt-related, not necessarily pure salt. Epsom salts give me the same skin reaction sea salts or baking soda gives me - itchy, inflamed skin with ingrown hairs. I don't have any idea why and will probably have to ask my Naturopath the next time I go in. One person tried to tell me I had something wrong with my epidermis barrier, but after she asked some more questions, quickly ruled that out. Who knows! My skin (particularly legs) tends to be on the dryer side and I have to use a lot of shea butter and sunflower or olive oil to keep it from getting irritated.

I use natural deodorants with baking soda and arrowroot powder, and many of them irritate my skin. Until I started using one that has zinc oxide in it, and that one hasn't bothered me as much. A lot of other baking-soda sensitive people noticed the same thing.

I make 100% CO soap with 0% SF for cleaning (I make my own homemade detergent and wash dishes with this soap) and I CPOP it. Last time I gave it too little time in the molds and it was slightly runny in the middle, so next time I would wait 18-24 hours before attempting to cut. It didn't really trace very hot for me though and didn't complete a full gel either, but I had a different oven then. I think climate can make a big difference in how certain oils that you'd think would be standard, react. It's funny.

 

[thinkativeone]

While we're on the subject, here's a company that declares coconut oil is NOT comedogenic: https://www.vmvhypoallergenics.com/...-health/411-is-virgin-coconut-oil-comedogenic

But before anyone yells at me that they're biased because they sell things, read the article. They cite a couple of doctors doing INDEPENDENT studies calling into question how comedogenic is determined. I really feel like there's something to this, because how plain coconut oil (also depends on whether they were using unrefined, cold-pressed virgin CO) affects the skin when applied as a moisturizer (not what we're doing with a wash-off product). Results vary WILDLY. Some people say it ended up looking like they rubbed pizza all over their face when they tried it, where others say they have baby-fresh skin after. Still others say they go through a "detox" period where they break out, but after sticking with it, the CO gets all the nastiness out due to its antibacterial/antifungal properties. I remain unconvinced that the various acne sites calling CO non-comedogenic got it right - plenty of women break out from facial products listed as "non-comedogenic"; I know I have. I'd like to learn more about the studies they are doing on this topic.

 

[grayceworks]

When I use it on my face, it looks very oily for about 5 minutes. Then it just suddenly absorbs and my skin just looks soft and fresh. When I use it on the rest of me, it soaks in instantly. I have no idea if I went through a detox or not because I already had breakouts, so all I noticed was when it started getting better.