Newton’s Third Law

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

Newton's third law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I now realize Newton was among other things, a soapmaker. The action was a successful first batch of homemade soap. Beginners luck some would say. A few would commend the excellent tutelage of skillful artisans. Still others would think the pronouncement premature or greatly exaggerated.

The reaction, the second batch disaster. My spousal unit, after reading something, suggested adding Honey to the next batch of soap. No dear, let me get a few batches done right before that, I read it can be tricky. So, as I was weighing out the honey with a little of the batch water to dilute it, my wife interjects the benefits of Lavender essential oil and how it smells so good. As I was weighing out the Lavender oil I decided to add it with the Honey at a light trace, it seemed like such a small amount to mix in. I didn’t use a lye discount so there’s a little wiggle room.

Got to a light trace beautifully and in a shorter amount of time than the first batch, I thought it must be the water I pulled out to dilute the Honey. This batch even looked creamier than the first. Woohoo! Ready to add the Honey and Lavender.

I got my wife to slowly drizzle in the addition while I mixed. I watched in horror as the batter turned into a Philippino fishball soup. I frantically mixed the batter until it blended together (sorta) but now it was hardening. From across the room, “Daddy, that don’t look right!” I got the batter into the mold so I could figure out what to do.

After an hour in the mold it turned into a gloppy liquid. Looking in troubleshooting the first thing I saw was using a stick blender to incorporate the honey is a no no. I also think what may have happened was because it was a small batch adding the honey and Lavender dropped the temp and/or I wasn’t really at a light trace yet. I dumped the glop into a double boiler and started heating it up. At 160ish I moved it a little with a spoon and it was melting together below the surface crust. After about an hour it got hot enough and started looking like a gel and homogenous. Then it started doing a volcano thing so I reduced heat. I poured it into the mold, covered it with a towel and walked away before I screwed it up worse. At last look it was hardened on the surface, kind of translucent, and still pretty warm after about 3 hours. About 4 tomorrow will be 24 hours.

Sooo…what did I do wrong? Did I or how can I save it? Do I get the Captain Obvious bonehead of the year award? It can’t just be using the mixer adding honey, can it?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

When batter goes sideways that quickly, it usually has something to do with the fragrance, with heater additives like honey a close second. Are you certain that the lavender EO was pure, unadulterated essential oil that was not old and rancid? Past that, for the best troubleshooting, you should post your full recipe, with actual weights/amounts of every ingredient.

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

When batter goes sideways that quickly, it usually has something to do with the fragrance, with heater additives like honey a close second. Are you certain that the lavender EO was pure, unadulterated essential oil that was not old and rancid? Past that, for the best troubleshooting, you should post your full recipe, with actual weights/amounts of every ingredient.

I should have thought of that. Here’s the ingredients:
10oz lard
10oz Coconut
5oz Olive
3oz Avacado
2oz Grapeseed
5oz Castor
1oz Lanolin

2tbsp or 42g Honey(local raw honey) diluted with 2oz of water taken from 12oz for recipe, and mixed with
25gms Lavender(East-West Herbal brand)

12oz water(distilled, 10oz after 2oz to dilute Honey)
5.2oz Lye
A couple of drops of yellow before adding Honey and things went sideways.

It was a recipe for shampoo bars my wife found that I substituted 10oz of Olive with lard. The lard made it similar to a moisturizing soap recipe someone posted so figured if it sucked at a shampoo bar use it for hand soap or dog shampoo. I was poking fun at my wife about the honey but it was a late addition. I checked off on recipe sheet and nothing was missed. Checked scale calibration with NIST traceable weight set before using. I use SS double boiler bowls for oils and lye, glass bowl for honey/lavender. Temp of oils 125f, lye solution 127f before mixing.

Update, as of 9 am it is hard and still feels slightly above room temp. Doesn’t seem crumbly and looks like hard honey candy. Smells good but not so much like lavender. I’ll leave it until 4 which will be 24hrs, slice and post a pic.

 

[AliOop]

t was a recipe for shampoo bars my wife found that I substituted 10oz of Olive with lard.

Hopefully you ran that through a soap calculator to adjust the lye for the fact that lard requires more lye than OO does?

Update, as of 9 am it is hard and still feels slightly above room temp. Doesn’t seem crumbly and looks like hard honey candy. Smells good but not so much like lavender. I’ll leave it until 4 which will be 24hrs, slice and post a pic.

You should cut the soap when it is ready to cut, not at a specific number of hours or days. Regardless of temperature and time, the soap is ready to cut then it is firm like refrigerated cheddar cheese, and releases cleanly from the mold (or freezer paper, if used).

You also mentioned that you were going to try this as a shampoo bar. Please be aware that using soap to wash your hair can cause extreme damage over time. It's a topic that gets people very riled up on both sides of things; there are lots of threads here about this debate. I encourage you to read them thoroughly so you understand the risks, and so you know how to spot any damage if it does occur, so you could reverse course immediately if needed.

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

Hopefully you ran that through a soap calculator to adjust the lye for the fact that lard requires more lye than OO does?


You should cut the soap when it is ready to cut, not at a specific number of hours or days. Regardless of temperature and time, the soap is ready to cut then it is firm like refrigerated cheddar cheese, and releases cleanly from the mold (or freezer paper, if used).

You also mentioned that you were going to try this as a shampoo bar. Please be aware that using soap to wash your hair can cause extreme damage over time. It's a topic that gets people very riled up on both sides of things; there are lots of threads here about this debate. I encourage you to read them thoroughly so you understand the risks, and so you know how to spot any damage if it does occur, so you could reverse course immediately if needed.

I did run it through a calculator. I downloaded an excel spreadsheet calculator and compared the results to one online before I used it. Went back to review the spreadsheet and noticed there was a 2.2% effective lye discount with an entered value of 1%. Changed the value to 0 and it defaulted to a .4% effective discount. I was playing around with the spreadsheet to see how it worked and probably changed that datapoint then neglected to change it back. With the default it changed the lye from 5.2 to 5.3oz. That equates to a ~1% lower concentration in the lye solution. I’m going back through everything trying to find an “aha!” but other than rounding differences and maybe an incorrect weight no luck. I think I would have noticed if I had the wrong U/M on the scale.

Hopefully you ran that through a soap calculator to adjust the lye for the fact that lard requires more lye than OO does?


You should cut the soap when it is ready to cut, not at a specific number of hours or days. Regardless of temperature and time, the soap is ready to cut then it is firm like refrigerated cheddar cheese, and releases cleanly from the mold (or freezer paper, if used).

You also mentioned that you were going to try this as a shampoo bar. Please be aware that using soap to wash your hair can cause extreme damage over time. It's a topic that gets people very riled up on both sides of things; there are lots of threads here about this debate. I encourage you to read them thoroughly so you understand the risks, and so you know how to spot any damage if it does occur, so you could reverse course immediately if needed.

The liaf came out of the mold without being goo on the inside. Cut it and other than a little oily residue on the knife it cut fine. Here are the pics.

 

[AliOop]

I did run it through a calculator. I downloaded an excel spreadsheet calculator and compared the results to one online before I used it. Went back to review the spreadsheet and noticed there was a 2.2% effective lye discount with an entered value of 1%. Changed the value to 0 and it defaulted to a .4% effective discount. I was playing around with the spreadsheet to see how it worked and probably changed that datapoint then neglected to change it back. With the default it changed the lye from 5.2 to 5.3oz. That equates to a ~1% lower concentration in the lye solution. I’m going back through everything trying to find an “aha!” but other than rounding differences and maybe an incorrect weight no luck. I think I would have noticed if I had the wrong U/M on the scale.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. I get that you are using the more outdated term "lye discount" instead of "superfat," but how you reached a 2.2% SF after entering a value of 1% makes no sense to me at all.

Also, please be aware that the concentration of the lye solution has nothing to do with the lye discount/SF. Those are two completely separate issue.

Lye discount aka superfat refers to the amount of lye in relation to the oils. Changing the amount of lye will change the superfat/discount.

Lye concentration refers to the ratio of lye to water. Changing the amount of water does not change the discount/SF - it only changes how much water is in the batter. That can affect how the batter behaves, but again, has no relation to how much SF your soap has.

 

[not_ally]

Seconding Ali's recommendation to be careful about using regular/lye based soap on hair. I think many/most (?) of us have tried them with widely varying degrees of success. I found them quite unpleasant (and quit using them before they did damage). But prefer syndet shampoo bars to the liquid shampoo I used to use.

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

Hopefully you ran that through a soap calculator to adjust the lye for the fact that lard requires more lye than OO does?


You should cut the soap when it is ready to cut, not at a specific number of hours or days. Regardless of temperature and time, the soap is ready to cut then it is firm like refrigerated cheddar cheese, and releases cleanly from the mold (or freezer paper, if used).

You also mentioned that you were going to try this as a shampoo bar. Please be aware that using soap to wash your hair can cause extreme damage over time. It's a topic that gets people very riled up on both sides of things; there are lots of threads here about this debate. I encourage you to read them thoroughly so you understand the risks, and so you know how to spot any damage if it does occur, so you could reverse course immediately if needed.

I have not read up on damage from shampoo bars other than seeing a side comment a few times, but will do so. I can see how improperly made or hi cleansing soap could cause problems but doubt irreparable harm? Allot of variables there.

 

[not_ally]

This is a pretty good link with a discussion on it. @cmzaha is a poster with a lot of credibility on this, she has more soaping/selling experience than almost anyone else here and (I think) was a hairdresser in her earlier life.

ETA: @Punkerdoodle’s Homestead, @DeeAnna is an expert soaper and chemist here, her posts on this (and all thing soaping chemistry related) are worth checking too. You might enjoy her website, in fact, so posted that below as well.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bars.75754/#post-778745
https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.asp

 

[AliOop]

I have not read up on damage from shampoo bars other than seeing a side comment a few times, but will do so. I can see how improperly made or hi cleansing soap could cause problems but doubt irreparable harm? Allot of variables there.

The high pH of all soap (at least 9, usually higher) is what causes the irreparable harm. Read some of the posts by @Obsidian whose formerly long, healthy hair had to be completely buzzed after using soap instead of true shampoo.

Men do seem to be able to get away with it more than women, probably bc their hair is typically much shorter. My husband and I both used soap on our hair for years without problems, but then it suddenly wrecked my husband's hair and scalp. He has some health issues that no doubt contributed. But even my hair improved dramatically when we switched to my homemade syndet bars instead of soap. That was very sad to me, as we try to keep things as natural as possible here in our home. But it was clear that we could not keep using soap on our hair.

YMMV. Being informed will help you make the best choice for your family.

 

[Obsidian]

Yes, hair damage from soap is a real thing. As mentioned, I had to buzz mine to 1/4" after it started breaking off in clumps. Granted it took about 2 year to get to that point, the high PH takes time to break down the cuticle.
Some people can use soap with no issue but unfortunately your hair could be receiving damage for months before it becomes really noticeable and by then, its too late.
Plus the fact that my hair felt and looked awful. Even with all the tricks like using cold water or vinegar rinse didn't help with the snarls and dull appearance

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. I get that you are using the more outdated term "lye discount" instead of "superfat," but how you reached a 2.2% SF after entering a value of 1% makes no sense to me at all.

Also, please be aware that the concentration of the lye solution has nothing to do with the lye discount/SF. Those are two completely separate issue.

Lye discount aka superfat refers to the amount of lye in relation to the oils. Changing the amount of lye will change the superfat/discount.

Lye concentration refers to the ratio of lye to water. Changing the amount of water does not change the discount/SF - it only changes how much water is in the batter. That can affect how the batter behaves, but again, has no relation to how much SF your soap has.

I think the spreadsheet calculates a default discount based on the oils/fats used. There is a field to enter a discount that gets calculated into that default to reach an effective discount. I looked at the formula and allot going on there.

I may be using the wrong terminology and oversimplifying, but see if I am understanding the whole SF/discount thing. It takes X amount of lye to saponify (digest) Y amount of oils/fats. To much lye, you have excess lye in the final soap. Not enough lye, the lye is consumed and what oils/fats are not digested becomes SFs. SF’s and discounts are basically used as a safety factor to make sure there is no excess lye because it impossible to address all of the variability in the oils. Water just aids the batter in doing its magic while giving time for mixing and pouring into molds. Am I close?

The high pH of all soap (at least 9, usually higher) is what causes the irreparable harm. Read some of the posts by @Obsidian whose formerly long, healthy hair had to be completely buzzed after using soap instead of true shampoo.

Men do seem to be able to get away with it more than women, probably bc their hair is typically much shorter. My husband and I both used soap on our hair for years without problems, but then it suddenly wrecked my husband's hair and scalp. He has some health issues that no doubt contributed. But even my hair improved dramatically when we switched to my homemade syndet bars instead of soap. That was very sad to me, as we try to keep things as natural as possible here in our home. But it was clear that we could not keep using soap on our hair.

YMMV. Being informed will help you make the best choice for your family.

Makes perfect sense. Short hair gets cut before damage shows. New growth is predominate. Longer hair is around long enough for damage to accumulate. New questiin… Will it increase or decrease shedding in dogs? Hmmmm. My wife has long hair and my daughter has long naturally curly hair, best not chance it.

The liaf came out of the mold without being goo on the inside. Cut it and other than a little oily residue on the knife it cut fine. Here are the pics.

…this may be a no-no for shampoo and suck as a soap but it smells amazing. Didn’t have much of a scent until after I cut it and laid it out on the table. Surface is not as oily now and cool to the touch. Maybe it will cure out into something usable. Washed up the mold and dishes and it’s definitely sudsy and creamy. Yes, I’m the eternal optimist.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Good save! You did the right thing doing emergency hot process. Once thing I will mention - and i'm not so good at imperial measurements - is that it looks like you've use quite a high amount of castor oil? That can accelerate trace significantly. It usually used at 5% of the recipe and 10% maximum.

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

The liaf came out of the mold without being goo on the inside. Cut it and other than a little oily residue on the knife it cut fine. Here are the pics.

…this may be a no-no for shampoo and suck as a soap but it smells amazing. Didn’t have much of a scent until after I cut it and laid it out on the table. Surface is not as oily now and cool to the touch. Maybe it will cure out into something usable. Washed up the mold and dishes and it’s definitely sudsy and creamy. Yes, I’m the eternal optimist.

Good save! You did the right thing doing emergency hot process. Once thing I will mention - and i'm not so good at imperial measurements - is that it looks like you've use quite a high amount of castor oil? That can accelerate trace significantly. It usually used at 5% of the recipe and 10% maximum.

Dangit, and I read that somewhere. When I converted from percent to ounces I didn’t switch castor. I looked at this so much didn’t see the forest for the trees. What a bonehead mistake. thx…

 

[Becky1024]

I got a chuckle out of your description as Philippino fishball soup! Another thing that could affect how quickly your batter comes to trace is how hot your lye water and oils / butters were when you started. The hotter they are, the faster it traces. I am learning that when you use honey you want them to be close to room temperature. My recommendation is to melt your solid butters, mix them with your oils and let them cool down. Do the same with your lye mixture.

Btw ... you did a good job working with it after it turned into fishball soup. I bet the soap will turn out fine, may just not cosmetically look good. I've used shampoo bars for many years and my hair is not damaged, but it is short. So you just have to try it and see if it works for you.

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

I got a chuckle out of your description as Philippino fishball soup! Another thing that could affect how quickly your batter comes to trace is how hot your lye water and oils / butters were when you started. The hotter they are, the faster it traces. I am learning that when you use honey you want them to be close to room temperature. My recommendation is to melt your solid butters, mix them with your oils and let them cool down. Do the same with your lye mixture.

Btw ... you did a good job working with it after it turned into fishball soup. I bet the soap will turn out fine, may just not cosmetically look good. I've used shampoo bars for many years and my hair is not damaged, but it is short. So you just have to try it and see if it works for you.

I had fishball soup, at least what I called it, in Canada visiting some Pilipino friends. Looked kinda funky but it was really good…should have never asked what was in it though.

Newton's third law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I now realize Newton was among other things, a soapmaker. The action was a successful first batch of homemade soap. Beginners luck some would say. A few would commend the excellent tutelage of skillful artisans. Still others would think the pronouncement premature or greatly exaggerated.

The reaction, the second batch disaster. My spousal unit, after reading something, suggested adding Honey to the next batch of soap. No dear, let me get a few batches done right before that, I read it can be tricky. So, as I was weighing out the honey with a little of the batch water to dilute it, my wife interjects the benefits of Lavender essential oil and how it smells so good. As I was weighing out the Lavender oil I decided to add it with the Honey at a light trace, it seemed like such a small amount to mix in. I didn’t use a lye discount so there’s a little wiggle room.

Got to a light trace beautifully and in a shorter amount of time than the first batch, I thought it must be the water I pulled out to dilute the Honey. This batch even looked creamier than the first. Woohoo! Ready to add the Honey and Lavender.

I got my wife to slowly drizzle in the addition while I mixed. I watched in horror as the batter turned into a Philippino fishball soup. I frantically mixed the batter until it blended together (sorta) but now it was hardening. From across the room, “Daddy, that don’t look right!” I got the batter into the mold so I could figure out what to do.

After an hour in the mold it turned into a gloppy liquid. Looking in troubleshooting the first thing I saw was using a stick blender to incorporate the honey is a no no. I also think what may have happened was because it was a small batch adding the honey and Lavender dropped the temp and/or I wasn’t really at a light trace yet. I dumped the glop into a double boiler and started heating it up. At 160ish I moved it a little with a spoon and it was melting together below the surface crust. After about an hour it got hot enough and started looking like a gel and homogenous. Then it started doing a volcano thing so I reduced heat. I poured it into the mold, covered it with a towel and walked away before I screwed it up worse. At last look it was hardened on the surface, kind of translucent, and still pretty warm after about 3 hours. About 4 tomorrow will be 24 hours.

Sooo…what did I do wrong? Did I or how can I save it? Do I get the Captain Obvious bonehead of the year award? It can’t just be using the mixer adding honey, can it?

Update: I washed my hands with a little piece and it’s soap. I expected it to be greasy but nice feel and really thick creamy lather. I wish I could describe the scent, unusual but nice. I’ll give it some cure time to see how it turns out.

I think I had several things going on that added up. See if this makes sense.
1. Missed converting Castor from % to ounces, ended up with 13% when meant to be 5%, impacting reactions negatively.
2. Thermal shock when adding honey and lavender or reaction from the honey itself in this recipe.
3. Using the stick blender when adding the Honey.
4. Need to understand lye discount/SF better and learn how/why to use it. Then I should understand the default value and override in the calculator.
5. KISS- keep it simple stupid. This recipe evolved over several days and errors were made in the calculator during changes, nobody to blame there but myself.

Did I miss anything? Thanks everyone for your input, I learned a great deal from this batch with your help. A bonus, learned about lye soap shampoo in the process. Thanks again!

 

[not_ally]

Listing like that is a good way to go forward. I always do it after a batch is not what I wanted in an "update" section of my notes. I sometimes start doing something wrong (again) as a bad habit - eg, forgetting to check temps or using the SB too much without thinking about it - and writing it down and carrying into the notes on my next recipe is a good way of reminding myself not to do it.

I think it's a great checklist for newbies, especially. Sometimes making mistakes - even a bunch all at once! - is a good way to learn because you remember better than if you just read about it

 

[Punkerdoodle’s Homestead]

Greetings gentile type persons knowledgeable in all things clean and pleasantly scented! Not to be beaten, I challenged the soap making gods once more, and was victorious…so far. Cab you tell I’m in a good mood?

Fixed the recipe, drug out the magnetic blender the mix water, honey, scent, and essential oils, didn’t use stick blender after getting to a light trace, and made sure all ingredients were at approximately the same temperature. Guess what? It worked exactly like all the posts, books, and videos said it would.

Only thing, green color drops turned it orange which was what I was going for the first time. They were colors from my daughter’s melt and pour kit, still crazy. Backed off the scent by 50% on this. The Newton 3rd Law batch is getting loud as it cures. If it sucks as soap it’ll make good air freshener.

Questions: The lard I used in the previous batch was the last jar from a December 2022 rendering. I opened it to use the rest of the jar on this batch and it had a little porky smell so I used a new jar from May 2023. I wouldn’t have used it for cooking but part of our making soap is to use it before it goes bad. I usually don’t have leftover lard that old and it had no smell at all when I opened it, but…could the lard being borderline have contributed to the problems I had? I use it for cooking up to 1 year since it’s hot packed in airtight jars. Should I apply the same time limit to soap making? Obviously wouldn’t use it if it was rancid but this just smelled porky/bacony…wait, bacon scented soap. Hmmm!

Thank again everybody for the help!

 

[Becky1024]

Greetings gentile type persons knowledgeable in all things clean and pleasantly scented! Not to be beaten, I challenged the soap making gods once more, and was victorious…so far. Cab you tell I’m in a good mood?

Fixed the recipe, drug out the magnetic blender the mix water, honey, scent, and essential oils, didn’t use stick blender after getting to a light trace, and made sure all ingredients were at approximately the same temperature. Guess what? It worked exactly like all the posts, books, and videos said it would.

Only thing, green color drops turned it orange which was what I was going for the first time. They were colors from my daughter’s melt and pour kit, still crazy. Backed off the scent by 50% on this. The Newton 3rd Law batch is getting loud as it cures. If it sucks as soap it’ll make good air freshener.

Questions: The lard I used in the previous batch was the last jar from a December 2022 rendering. I opened it to use the rest of the jar on this batch and it had a little porky smell so I used a new jar from May 2023. I wouldn’t have used it for cooking but part of our making soap is to use it before it goes bad. I usually don’t have leftover lard that old and it had no smell at all when I opened it, but…could the lard being borderline have contributed to the problems I had? I use it for cooking up to 1 year since it’s hot packed in airtight jars. Should I apply the same time limit to soap making? Obviously wouldn’t use it if it was rancid but this just smelled porky/bacony…wait, bacon scented soap. Hmmm!

Thank again everybody for the help!

Your old lard from 2022 probably did not cause the problems you had. If anything, your bars may develop DOS months down the road if the lard was going rancid.

It would be an interesting experiment to make another batch with the 2022 lard now that you fixed the recipe. I bet it will turn out the same as the batch with the new lard!

 

[AliOop]

As I was weighing out the Lavender oil I decided to add it with the Honey at a light trace, it seemed like such a small amount to mix in. I didn’t use a lye discount so there’s a little wiggle room.

FYI, essential oils are not "oils" for purposes of the soap calculator. They don't change the SF, the amount of lye required, etc. You do need to check for the skin safe usage rate for every different EO used in the soap, as some can be used quite liberally, while others should be used sparingly, or not at all. EOCalc.com is a great resource to check usage rates for the most commonly-used EOs.

I usually don’t have leftover lard that old and it had no smell at all when I opened it, but…could the lard being borderline have contributed to the problems I had?

If one of your problems was fast tracing, then yes, any older fat or oil is going to be more oxidized, and thus will trace faster. That's true of essential oils, as well, even though they aren't being saponified, as noted above.