New and thoroughly confused already

[wONEderland]

Hello everyone! I am a newb at making products but would like to start my own line. I have made products for friends and family but they were done in tiny batches and used right away. Now that I've started the venture of mass production on a larger scale, I have turned to professional help. I haven't been this confused since chemistry class! Hopefully I can learn quick and a lot from all of you!

 

[shunt2011]

Hello and welcome to the forum. There is a lot of information available on this forum. I highly suggest you read through as many posts as you can. What kind of products are you making? There are a lot of bright, talented and nice people here willing to help.

 

[wONEderland]

Thanks! I am going to be making a ton of products. Just about everything bath and body all the way to cleaning products. Everything made out of very few ingredients to keep it as simple as possible. The problem I'm running into is preservatives. I have been researching every preservative on the planet over the last few weeks and I don't think I'm any closer to figuring out what I want to use. Most of my bath and body products are going to have a lot of oils like jojoba and sweet almond in them so I'm confused if I have to use a preservative that has to be used in oil products. I'd like to find a more natural preservative that could be used for both oil and water based. Another problem I have is that there is no heating or cooking in any of my recipes and almost every preservative I've found has to be used it a heat process. I am hoping to get real life help instead of just copying and pasting the same two websites over and over again that I don't understand. I've already began reading but I'm not finding much on the few preservatives I've found that I'd like to know more about.

 

[snappyllama]

Swift Monkey Blog is an excellent source for B&B. The basic gist is: if your product contains ONLY oil and will not ever come into contact with water, you don't need one. Everything else does.

Here's her blogs about preservatives, how/why to use them, which ones, etc....http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/preservatives.html

She has some ebooks available on her site. I'm working my way through the Lotion 101 right now. It's great information!

Sorry if I just posted the website you've been reading and not getting. I realized that after I hit the "post" button. I'd say that different products require different preservative systems. It might be easiest to figure one product at a time. For instance, I use Phenonip @ 1% in my scrubs since I do introduce water to them when I use them in the shower.

I wouldn't use it in my toner though... I use Poly 20 to emulsify it and Phenonip is inactivated by Poly 80. There I use Optiphen Plus since my formula is mainly witch hazel and its pH is well within Optiphen Plus's limitations.

Also, you mentioned no heating in your recipes... as in... you don't do a heat and hold phase? I think youmight wish to reconsider that... Your preservative will have potentially too much work to do killing nasties off the bat that you could have eradicated by doing a heat and hold.

 

[wONEderland]

Correct, I have no heating. I'll post one of my recipes just so you can see what kind of ingredients I'm working with.

Ingredients

• ½ cup coconut milk (I make my own from scratch as well)
  
• ⅔ cup castile soap, I prefer the lavender
  
• 5 drops of essential oil or fragrance oil
  
• 2 tsp. vegetable glycerin
  

Instructions: Combine all ingredients in a bottle and shake.


This is the original recipe I used but being that I'll be making it in larger quantities, I need to be able to preserve it. This recipe would be used up before it ever had a chance to go bad. This one happens to have the homemade coconut milk in it which I make from scratch as well but most of my recipes read similar to this as in they only have a few ingredients. Nothing I do is ever heated so I don't even know how or when to do a heated phase. I see all these long names for things and it gets even more confusing. I'm using the least amount of ingredients I can.

I did find a few preservatives that I am really interested in one is Vegecide and the other is called Biosecur. I can find minimal information on the Vegecide but really NOTHING on the Biosecur. It looks like Biosecur sells its preservative to Sharon Laboratories who then uses them to make custom blend preservatives and sell the just a couple companies throughout the world. I can't find a price or what they really are or do or how to get them, nothing! I liked the idea of Vegecide but have read that although it's testing has proven it will cover bacteria, fungus and mold, it won't actually do those because of the ingredients in it. I also read that it would do both oil and water based products but later found statements that wasn't true either. And I have read that it thins out your products on multiple sites, which means I would have to add something else in to thicken them back up. I'm trying to be as natural as I can but I just don't understand all of the science part. I know I need to check PH levels and have them in a certain range, however, that range seems to be different on every website I have found with advice and I don't know how to check it anyway. I also know that I need to test for bacteria, fungus and mold, however, I don't know how to do that either.

 

[snappyllama]

So you're taking the recipe from LiveSimply and need us to figure out how to preserve coconut milk so you can sell it?

 

[cmzaha]

Wowsers, I think you really need to step back and get a good handle on what you are trying to do. Without understanding the basics of how products are made and why they are preserved, how to check ph etc etc you need to rethink what you are doing. It just is not fair to the customers to sell and not know what you are selling. I really doubt to many here will take the responsibility to tell you how to preserve your product, but may make some recommendations. In my experience there just is no one preservative for everything, although paraben based may come close. You should send out your products for challenge testing to a reputable lab. I believe some are mentioned in the forums.

 

[wONEderland]

No this is the recipe for my body wash I was using for me and my friends and family. I was simply using it as an example to show how simple my current products are. I don't understand most chemicals and want to keep things as natural as I possibly can. I was simply trying to show that there isn't a heat phase. I'm not sure where you would add one in most of my recipes.


See what I mean by Chinese and confused, lol. I'm even confusing you! lol.

I understand that everything has to be tested and preserved, etc. I haven't made anything for sale yet. Everything I've ever made was in given to friends and family in small batches, almost like samples and was used up with a few days. Perhaps it would be easier if I list my current questions...

1. Is there a preservative out there that is both formaldehyde and paraben free that works for both oil and water?

2. How do I test the PH for my products, everything I'm finding is for things like tap or pool water.

3. How do I get my products tested for fungus, mold and bacteria? Can I do this at home before I have it shipped off somewhere?

4. I currently do not have any heat phase in any of my products so how and where would I add this in to most recipes?

5. I'd like to use a natural or Ecocert preservative and I've found Vegecide and Biosecur that might work for both oil and water products but the information I'm finding is so back and forth and contradicting I was looking for real life experiences with them.

Perhaps that will help... If not I've confused you just as badly as I'm confused! lol.

 

[snappyllama]

1. Is there a preservative out there that is both formaldehyde and paraben free that works for both oil and water?

Optiphen Plus is good contender for anhydrous products. It's a broad spectrum preservative. It is both formaldehyde and paraben free. It needs to be used at formulations with pH at 6 or under.

https://www.lotioncrafter.com/reference/tech_data_optiphen_plus.pdf

For water based products, I *think* Optiphen ND might work. I haven't used it personally and think it still has the pH limitation. There have been reports of folks saying they had trouble with the Optiphen line curdling lotions and such. I haven't see it, but that's something to keep in mind. You'll want to do your own research on that. I'm just a hobbyist.

2. How do I test the PH for my products, everything I'm finding is for things like tap or pool water.

Check out Lotioncrafter.com for pH meters.

3. How do I get my products tested for fungus, mold and bacteria? Can I do this at home before I have it shipped off somewhere?

Lotioncrafter has an at-home test. Seriously, lotioncrafter has *everything*. I'm not sure of where to have your products challenge tested.

4. I currently do not have any heat phase in any of my products so how and where would I add this in to most recipes?

Even if you're just whipping oils, you can heat/hold the oils to temperature to kill off nasties. Then cool and whip.

5. I'd like to use a natural or Ecocert preservative and I've found Vegecide and Biosecur that might work for both oil and water products but the information I'm finding is so back and forth and contradicting I was looking for real life experiences with them.

Sorry, I have no idea about those.

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Before contemplating selling, you should spend time researching your own recipes, what ingredients do and get an understanding of the science behind everything. I really cannot recommend swift monkey blog enough. It gets "sciency", but as a formulator... you need to understand the basics. You could seriously injure someone.

 

[wONEderland]

I have read a lot of the craft monkey information and have found I understand a lot of it without having to have a chemistry degree. I use basic ingredients and I understand how those work but because I was making such small batches for one time uses basically, I never needed a preservative because the product would be used before it ever had a chance to go bad. I'm nowhere near ready to start selling anything, I just want to make sure I am doing everything I can to learn and protect my future customers to the best of my ability. I figured this site would be a good place to see and learn about real life experiences with things.

I have skimmed lotioncrafters as I was finding things over the past few weeks. Nowadays thoygh, you have to be very careful because anyone can create a website and claim things so I wanted to make sure information I was getting was correct and accurate.


Thanks for putting things in English. I really appreciate it! Hopefully I can learn a ton and not have to go back to college to get a chemistry degree to do it lol.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Whoa there! Pause! Time out.

There is a lot of information on the site that answers your questions. I suggest reading the bath and body section, go back at least 10 pages and look in to any and every thread that seems interesting. It is a lot of work, but after that you will have far fewer questions.

Those questions can then be posted in the right section for being answered, as I know many people don't check this section at all.

But please do look through older threads as a lot of the answers to your questions are there

..............Thanks for putting things in English. I really appreciate it! Hopefully I can learn a ton and not have to go back to college to get a chemistry degree to do it lol.

But one thing you will need, rather than a degree, is foundation. This is best obtained by looking at how-to's and so one, such as the swift craft monkey basic lotion instructions which makes it clear what they do and why they do it, such as heating and holding.

 

[Aline]

Hopefully I can learn a ton and not have to go back to college to get a chemistry degree to do it lol.

You pretty much have to 'teach yourself' cosmetic chemistry to create your own products. There are a ton of resources to help you, however, including the people who sell the ingredients (Jen at Lotioncrafter is a gem as well as Angie at the Herbarie). It was quite a learning curve developing a lotion formula that was the consistency I wanted and fitted my branding and I thought lotion bars and lip balm would be a breeze, but now I have to figure out melting issues....roblem:

 

[shunt2011]

I agree with the others. You have to be able to formulate your products and find what preservatives will work for your specific product. The majority of us here have done all the footwork for our own products and with loads of time troubleshooting, formulating and testing our products. This is something one needs to do themselves prior to even begin to think about selling. You need to know more than the basics when selling.

You have been given some excellent advice. Swift Crafty Monkey has a fountain of information as does lotioncrafter. I highly recommend you read, read, read, then test, test, test.

 

[wONEderland]

I completely agree that I need to read a ton, research and then trial and error things. I'm not saying I'm going to start selling things today. As I've said, I'm nowhere near ready for that. I have been reading for weeks already, but, as I said, there were a lot of things that I didn't understand so I thought coming onto a forum would help make sense of what I was reading. I have found Craft Monkey to be very helpful. I knew people here would have reliable sources of information rather than me just googling and finding information that have no credibility at all. I have been searching this forum and reading through things that I am interested in trying. Please don't confuse my questions as me saying I want you to do all my work for me and I start selling tomorrow. These are just the first few questions I have that I haven't been able to answer myself as I have been researching. I do know the basics as I said I've been making these products in small amounts for family and friends. But making a sample for my friend to use tonight when she takes a shower and mass production are completely different ballgames. I'd never want to do anything that would harm someone so I'm trying to find the best products I can without giving up too much on the "natural" side of things. If I'm filling my products full of chemicals, it defeats the purpose of what my friends and family want. I don't think I have to have a degree, I'm simply being sarcastic. Whenever you start to learn about something new, it seems like Chinese because of the terms used, wording, etc. I'm positive I'll get to where I want to be and I'm hoping this forum will be a good place to get quality, nice advice.

 

[cmzaha]

Over at The Dish forum there is lot of knowledgeable members, but be very careful there with your questions. Best to read through the forums and gain knowledge., since have 0 tolerance for someone wanting recipes or info without researching. Susan from Swift Crafty is a member there.
Mods, hope this is okay to post, if not please delete. I did not have time this morning to go through the posting rules.

 

[wONEderland]

Thank You for the info. However, I have 0 tolerance for people being rude when one is simply asking questions. I understand the popularity to fry the newb and all their redundant, dumb questions but I am looking for people who love what they do and love teaching others how to do things and their craft. I am hoping this is the place to find that wealth of knowledge while being treated with respect.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Thank You for the info. However, I have 0 tolerance for people being rude when one is simply asking questions. I understand the popularity to fry the newb and all their redundant, dumb questions but I am looking for people who love what they do and love teaching others how to do things and their craft. I am hoping this is the place to find that wealth of knowledge while being treated with respect.

There is respect, but also firm handling mainly here. Rude is a relative term, based on what people deem to be acceptable and also is made even more murky by the medium of a forum! So please do assume that people are not being rude when there is any doubt one way or the other.

From your first post you did indicate that you are looking to increase production of what you currently make and that you wanted to learn quickly, that you had started on the venture of mass production. As has been said, that then puts a lot of people on a certain footing.

My favourite analogy is someone saying "I want to sell wedding cakes! Now, how to bake wedding cakes?" - you want to sell B&B products (maybe not right away, but that is your goal) but you don't know how to make good quality products yet. Yet - because as you say, you are in a great place to learn.

When I came here, I knew almost nothing about soaping. I had seen a recipe online but there was an ingredient that I wasn't keen on as I thought that my wife would not like the smell. But I was intrigued with making soap, so I came here and read until it hurt - but now I know how to take a recipe and change it, the why as well as the what. I am now also delving in to the world of lotions and so on, which makes me a newbie again in those areas and I start again, a lot of reading (on here and places referenced here) for a foundation and then I can fill in the blanks with a few questions in the right section of the forum.

People here DO love to help people, but they certainly DO NOT have to do so. You mention "redundant, dumb questions" and there in does lie a reason why people might not be as willing to answer you (as already said, there IS a section for actually asking questions where more people go, this is mainly just a place to say hello and introduce oneself, not get detailed information - that is in specific forum sections) - because if there are clearly marked threads with the basic information or when a very easy search would answer most of them, then people might not be overly joyous when asked to answer these redundant questions as they are.........well........redundant.

Which is why I said to slow down and have a nose around the site here, then make a thread in the correct section to fill in any gaps in the knowledge - but most of all: play! Look at some of the recipes on this site and have a go at making them. It's a jolly good way to make some very rapid progress.

 

[wONEderland]

I was not saying this forum was being rude but replying to the place that was suggested but they might not have any tolerance for anything. I realize my original questions were not in the right place but in my introduction and the conversation that followed, those questions came out as I thought it was important to note why I was here. I apologize for being misleading in my original post. Yes I would like to eventually mass produce my products. Yes I have been making and using products currently. However, I make them in such small amounts that nothing other than careful, clean preparation was needed. No preservatives or unnecessary ingredients because I would make them and either myself or my friends and family would use them right away. I realize the redundance in most questions and have began the long road of reading on here. I have already been reading in other places, especially craft monkey. Also as I have stated, I appreciate any help I receive along the way. I understand that written communication can often be misinterpreted as coming off snotty or rude and that hs not been my intention this entire time. I want to talk to real people who have substantial information to give me, not just copy and paste a link and say "go read" I'd like to know why I should read that specific post, what makes it valid, was it helpful for you, etc. We live in a world of technology and have forgotten how to speak to one another. I am here to speak and listen. Not fight or be negative.
I hope this clears some things up.

FYI: I have already learned a few things just this morning in my reading. I find that I read constantly from the time I wake up until the time I go to sleep and I do learn a few things but often I am more confused than anything by the overwhelming contradictory information out there.

 

[Lindy]

That is why once you have read things you can bring them to the proper forum and ask you questions. I am going to give you 2 pieces of advice immediately. The recipe you quoted cannot be preserved to hold the milk as it is raw and you are using too much, 12% is the maximum. Which brings me to my next piece of advice; quit measuring in cups and tablespoons. You need to measuring in ounces or grams to produce anything that can be considered exact.

 

[wONEderland]

I figured that once I started to make things in larger quantities I'd have to adjust my recipes and I'm a cook so using things in cups made more sense when I was just making small batches with no need for extra chemicals or additives. I have been searching through the forums and finding pieces of information I can use.