Need some cloudiness input...

[MetalMausoleum]

So, I've only ever made hot process soap and it's always went well, but I tried to make liquid soap and all the signs point to it being wrong, but it lathers well and doesn't zap sooo I need some input.

First off I used 50% tallow 50% coconut, and my soap for my purposes has to be saturated heavy soap.
2% superfat
90% KOH
Distilled water
2% citric acid added with the oils
Used lyecalc.com to calculate.
Measured with a scale, meticulously

Pictures seen is a ratio of 1:2:2, soap:water:glycerin. I tested the soap on an outdoor table with great results...

It was clear when warm but as soon as the water cooled it has left a swirly cloudiness. I tested multiple ratios and the clearest is 1:2 soap:water but still swirly.

•Is the saturated heavy oils what is lending to the cloudiness? Any way to fix with current use of oils?
•Also my "soap paste" is hard as a rock and is that to do with the saturated heavy oils?
•Does cloudiness really matter? I see people avoid it but I've never seen reason as to why.

Any input is well appreciated and let me know if you need to know more!

 

[ResolvableOwl]

•Is the saturated heavy oils what is lending to the cloudiness? Any way to fix with current use of oils?

Most probably, but it's not necessarily the whole story. How is the soap performing in the clarity test (a few % dissolved in distilled water)?

What you're indicating with “heavy oils” is very plausible. Don't care about coconut oil, it'll give crystal clear LS. But tallow contains a lot of long-chain fatty acids (most notably stearic acid). Their alkali salts are not very soluble in cold water, and tend to crystallise over time, to form a kind of “snow” inside the LS. That's why the “clarity test” is carried out in diluted solution. This is in line with your observation of clear soap while still hot. You can try to mitigate by further dilution (your 20% has still quite some headroom without becoming anywhere “weak”).

But the cloudiness might have other reasons too. Your superfat is close to the limit of what LS can reliably hold in solution at room temperature; any deviation can mean a surplus of superfat. Possible reasons: Tallow with too conservative saponification value (slightly depends on what the cattle have eaten). Are you positive that your KOH is at 90% purity? It might well be that it has a lower KOH content, due to fabrication and/or storage (moisture and carbon dioxide from the air). Have you included the equivalent of citric acid into the amount of KOH?

Unsaponifiables are another source of, well, things that don't become soap solution, but float around insoluble. Tallow and coconut are not typical natural sources. But adulteration/contamination like mineral oil might be considered, depending on the source of the oils.

Your photos remind a bit of soap scum (soap + water hardness), but this can be ruled out when you have used distilled water.

•Also my "soap paste" is hard as a rock and is that to do with the saturated heavy oils?

Probably. Water content plays a role too. Too thick soap paste (too little water in the recipe) needlessly complicates the dilution process, but has no lasting downsides. Dilute with heated water if you're impatient. Or pre-mix the soap paste with the extra glyerol you're adding anyway.

•Does cloudiness really matter? I see people avoid it but I've never seen reason as to why.

It depends. Superfat cloudiness encourages rancidity (more an issue with soft vegetable oils, though), and might feel greasy on the skin, and compromise cleansing power and lather (mostly irrelevant at your CO level). If it's soap crystals, then sedimentation slightly changes the composition throughout the batch (stearic soap missing in the top liquid). In most cases, these things are purely cosmetic within the error bars of artisanal crafting.
So it's okay to not worry too much – but it's also okay to get to the bottom of it.
For future recipes, don't go as high with hard oils. They add little to LS that a robust vegetable oil (canola, high-oleic sunflower/safflower) couldn't. Unless of course you're playing with that opacity, like a few LS soapmakers deliberately do.

 

[MetalMausoleum]

Most probably, but it's not necessarily the whole story. How is the soap performing in the clarity test (a few % dissolved in distilled water)?

What you're indicating with “heavy oils” is very plausible. Don't care about coconut oil, it'll give crystal clear LS. But tallow contains a lot of long-chain fatty acids (most notably stearic acid). Their alkali salts are not very soluble in cold water, and tend to crystallise over time, to form a kind of “snow” inside the LS. That's why the “clarity test” is carried out in diluted solution. This is in line with your observation of clear soap while still hot. You can try to mitigate by further dilution (your 20% has still quite some headroom without becoming anywhere “weak”).

But the cloudiness might have other reasons too. Your superfat is close to the limit of what LS can reliably hold in solution at room temperature; any deviation can mean a surplus of superfat. Possible reasons: Tallow with too conservative saponification value (slightly depends on what the cattle have eaten). Are you positive that your KOH is at 90% purity? It might well be that it has a lower KOH content, due to fabrication and/or storage (moisture and carbon dioxide from the air). Have you included the equivalent of citric acid into the amount of KOH?

Unsaponifiables are another source of, well, things that don't become soap solution, but float around insoluble. Tallow and coconut are not typical natural sources. But adulteration/contamination like mineral oil might be considered, depending on the source of the oils.

Your photos remind a bit of soap scum (soap + water hardness), but this can be ruled out when you have used distilled water.

Probably. Water content plays a role too. Too thick soap paste (too little water in the recipe) needlessly complicates the dilution process, but has no lasting downsides. Dilute with heated water if you're impatient. Or pre-mix the soap paste with the extra glyerol you're adding anyway.

It depends. Superfat cloudiness encourages rancidity (more an issue with soft vegetable oils, though), and might feel greasy on the skin, and compromise cleansing power and lather (mostly irrelevant at your CO level). If it's soap crystals, then sedimentation slightly changes the composition throughout the batch (stearic soap missing in the top liquid). In most cases, these things are purely cosmetic within the error bars of artisanal crafting.
So it's okay to not worry too much – but it's also okay to get to the bottom of it.
For future recipes, don't go as high with hard oils. They add little to LS that a robust vegetable oil (canola, high-oleic sunflower/safflower) couldn't. Unless of course you're playing with that opacity, like a few LS soapmakers deliberately do.

Thanks for answering everything! (Usually dont get that much help from any forum so thanks!).

The clarity test I've done is estimated 2-4% soap in distilled water, cold at 60F, and stired up and is the picture I attached. Lookin kinda bad...

KOH is from essential depot and the listing claims 90% but bottle says nothing. Its brand new and just opened. I added .32oz of citric acid and lyecalc said to add .31oz extra of lye so I did.
Not sure if it changes anything but the coconut is virgin, I forgot to mention.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Hrm. First, good to know that you properly neutralised the citric acid. Freshly opened KOH lye (and believing the advertised purity) is the best you can do. No-zap means that lye purity isn't grossly underestimated either, and waiting a few days won't help much (unlike it frequently did with cloudiness issues of others).

Regarding your clarity test: do you see mother-of-pearl like turbulence in it when you are stirring?
You made me finally write up a bit about my experiences with LS high in hard oils, and false-positive clarity test. Heat that sample up, let it cool down again, and watch closely. I strongly suspect that your soap becomes clear when warm, and murky again when cooled down to room temperature. If this is the case, IMHO there is really nothing left to keep you from accepting that your soapmaking was a full success!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

50/50 Tallow & Coconut is likely to result in somewhat opaque soap due to the tallow. Lard results in opaque LS as well. Here's a pic of my most recent batch of 50/50 lard & coconut:

This is a family/friends favorite! I keep a jug in the laundry room to dispense as needed. It clears in about 6 months. You may want to read this thread:

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

 

[MetalMausoleum]

Hrm. First, good to know that you properly neutralised the citric acid. Freshly opened KOH lye (and believing the advertised purity) is the best you can do. No-zap means that lye purity isn't grossly underestimated either, and waiting a few days won't help much (unlike it frequently did with cloudiness issues of others).

Regarding your clarity test: do you see mother-of-pearl like turbulence in it when you are stirring?
You made me finally write up a bit about my experiences with LS high in hard oils, and false-positive clarity test. Heat that sample up, let it cool down again, and watch closely. I strongly suspect that your soap becomes clear when warm, and murky again when cooled down to room temperature. If this is the case, IMHO there is really nothing left to keep you from accepting that your soapmaking was a full success!

If by mother of pearl you mean a swirly cloud of what almost looks like a white pearlescent shimmer then yes I did. And I did heat it up and it went 100% clear!

Your input has been invaluable and I thank you so much!

Not to take up much more of your time, but do you think I'm in a good ball park with a soap to water to glycerin @ 1:2:2? I've been testing around that range with interesting results. Not quite sure where the lines between too little soap and too much soap is. Especially glycerin.

 

[MetalMausoleum]

50/50 Tallow & Coconut is likely to result in somewhat opaque soap due to the tallow. Lard results in opaque LS as well. Here's a pic of my most recent batch of 50/50 lard & coconut:

View attachment 56676
This is a family/friends favorite! I keep a jug in the laundry room to dispense as needed. It clears in about 6 months. You may want to read this thread:

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

Awesome to know! I think I may have an oil worth trying over tallow, if I decide I dont like the opaque waters for my soap.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Sounds great! Congrats to your well-made soap!

do you think I'm in a good ball park with a soap to water to glycerin @ 1:2:2? I've been testing around that range with interesting results. Not quite sure where the lines between too little soap and too much soap is. Especially glycerin.

That's mostly a matter of taste. You don't have to add any glycerol. It can add some creamy “heaviness” to a LS, the moisturising properties of glycerol are present but not unquestioned, and depend on skin type and weather conditions. It'll make dilution easier, particularly with recipes high in hard oils like tallow.

There really is no hard line, you have to know/find out by yourself. Dilute some soap paste with water alone, and test how you like it. Then you can test any glycerol level in between by mixing this with your 1:2:2 soap.

To my taste, soap:glycerol 1:2 sounds a bit like waste of glycerol – but if you like it that way, stay with it!
If you're adding glycerol for the viscosity, there are better ways, like the “salt curve”.


ETA: There might be another point that is addressed by glycerol: density. The pearlescent crystals are heavier than water, so they sink to the bottom – except when they're not floating in water/diluted soap, but a liquid with the same density. I can't estimate if a carefully adjusted glycerol content can achieve this, but it might well be; and then it's an appropriate way to avoid sedimentation, and keep the shimmering crystals floating.