Need help scaling my cornbread recipe up

[Arthur Dent]

My grandmother's cornbread recipe (as written down by my mother 30+ years ago) is perfect for an 8" cast iron skillet. I would like to scale it up to fit 10" and 12" skillets. Is it as simple as finding the volume of the skillets then increasing the ingredients to fit?
Here's the recipe:

2 cups yellow corn meal
2 tblsp flour
1 egg
2 tsp baking powder
1 1/2 tsp salt
1 1/4 cup milk (adjust to thickness)

Preheat oven
Mix ingredients together while heating 1/4 cup bacon grease in 8" iron skillet - pour hot grease into batter leaving enough to coat bottom of skillet. Sprinkle bottom of skillet with corn meal. Mix batter well, then pour into skillet. Bake at 500 degrees (or less) until brown, about 30 - 35 minutes.

 

[KattChaos]

I can't help, I am not even allowed in the kitchen half the time. But that sounds so good. I now miss my mom's cornbread something fierce!

 

[Kittish]

Depending how thick the cornbread comes out in an 8" skillet, you may not need to adjust it at all to be able to use it in a 10", it'll just be a little thinner. For increasing the recipe, you're kind of stuck with doubling. Unless you're willing to go to the effort to add part of an egg. (Granted, it's doable, it's just more trouble than it's usually worth.)

If double is too much for the skillet, maybe make a couple of cornbread muffins on the side with the overflow.

 

[SaltedFig]

Yum!

And yes, use the skillet volume increase to scale up everything.

Remember when you scale up the volume, to keep the original cornbread height (changing the height will change how the recipe cooks).

This might help you ... http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=65506

Is it as simple as finding the volume of the skillets then increasing the ingredients to fit?

 

[Kittish]

Yum!

And yes, use the volume increase to scale up everything.

Remember when you scale up the volume, to keep the original cornbread height (changing the height will change how the recipe cooks).

This might help you ... http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=65506

No real need to keep the original height. The biggest difference will be a thinner cornbread will cook a little faster is all, so long as you don't try to go johnnycake thin or anything like that. And if you want to make johnnycakes, you don't put them in the oven anyway.

Scaling by volume doesn't always work very well with baking recipes. Thing is, wet and dry ingredients scale at slightly different rates in baked goods. Doubling usually works ok, but for more than that you need to start taking into account the different scale rates or you'll wind up with something that's either gooey and undercooked or super dry and crumbly.

 

[SaltedFig]

Kittish, the height comment was to reduce any other changes more than anything (like in your example, thinner cooks faster).

Oh! I get it ... the recipe is in volume measurements (I'm so used to working in weights that I didn't check). Yes, the recipe would need to be converted to weight measurements before scaling large quantities ...

Is there more to it?

No real need to keep the original height. The biggest difference will be a thinner cornbread will cook a little faster is all, so long as you don't try to go johnnycake thin or anything like that. And if you want to make johnnycakes, you don't put them in the oven anyway.

Scaling by volume doesn't always work very well with baking recipes. Thing is, wet and dry ingredients scale at slightly different rates in baked goods. Doubling usually works ok, but for more than that you need to start taking into account the different scale rates or you'll wind up with something that's either gooey and undercooked or super dry and crumbly.

 

[DeeAnna]

If you want to scale it up so the cornbread has about the same thickness and all, going from 8" to 10" skillet would be about 1.5 times the original recipe. A 12" skillet would be about 2 times the original recipe.

If you want the height of the cornbread to stay about the same as you scale up, then when you simplify the math, the scale factor is the square of the bigger radius divided by the square of the smaller radius -- or the square of the bigger diameter divided by the square of the smaller diameter. Either way works.

Kittish has a point too -- there are some good books by Shirley O Corriher that talk about the science of baking if you want to learn more. But I'd be comfortable scaling ingredients in this recipe by 1.5 to 2 times. What I do question is whether to lower the baking temp somewhat -- the center of a larger batch will need a little more cook time, but you don't want the edges to overbake and dry out.

 

[Arthur Dent]

...you may not need to adjust it at all to be able to use it in a 10", it'll just be a little thinner...

That's the way my dad likes it actually, but it comes out too thin for me.

Thing is, wet and dry ingredients scale at slightly different rates in baked goods.

This is what I was worried about. That and the fraction of an egg.

Oh! I get it ... the recipe is in volume measurements...

Yes, a lot of cooking recipes in the USA are in volume, especially the old ones. But thanks for the ideas.

What I do question is whether to lower the baking temp somewhat -- the center of a larger batch will need a little more cook time, but you don't want the edges to overbake and dry out.

That's a good point. And I'll look up those books.


Thanks everyone for the good ideas. I'll go with the 1.5x and 2x scaling and see how it goes. I'll try just using one egg for the 1.5x, I bet it will be fine.

 

[dixiedragon]

Clearly, the solution is to get 2 8-inch skillets and do 2 batches of cornbread.

 

[Rusti]

Clearly, the solution is to get 2 8-inch skillets and do 2 batches of cornbread.

This sounds reasonable to me!

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Doubling is almost always safe.

 

[Susie]

That's the way my dad likes it actually, but it comes out too thin for me.




This is what I was worried about. That and the fraction of an egg.




Yes, a lot of cooking recipes in the USA are in volume, especially the old ones. But thanks for the ideas.




That's a good point. And I'll look up those books.


Thanks everyone for the good ideas. I'll go with the 1.5x and 2x scaling and see how it goes. I'll try just using one egg for the 1.5x, I bet it will be fine.

Egg adds more than you think. The protein in the egg actually helps support the crumb structure. The fat portion of the egg also promotes moisture.

To get part of an egg, crack an egg into a measuring cup. Whisk it together. Then note how much it is (normally 1/4 cup), and pour half of that into the recipe. If you don't want to fool with that (I don't), just use two eggs rather than one. I find that more egg is better than less in most recipes.

 

[DeeAnna]

I think Susie has a point especially in this recipe, because it has a lot more corn meal than flour. With so very little flour and perhaps not quite enough egg to bind it, it may be overly crumbly.

 

[dixiedragon]

Possibly replace the part of the second egg with mayonnaise? Or full-fat plain yogurt?

 

[Saranac]

About that 500F cooking temperature. . . .

At first glance it makes sense that a larger pan of batter would need a lower temperature, but I wouldn’t advise it . . . yet. I was a professional baker for a number of years, and I can say that I’ve (almost) never lowered an oven temperature when baking a larger cake (which is essentially what you have here). If the goal is simply to scale up to a larger diameter, it’s most likely unnecessary to lower the temperature—so long as you’re working with room-temperature ingredients and the thickness (height) of the “cake” stays the same. It’s important to remember that the heat in the oven surrounds the item being baked. As such, all sides are receiving heat. It may take a few more minutes to bake, but this recipe has no sugar and a (relatively) small amount of fat for a baked-good, and I wouldn’t worry about over-browning (even in a hot skillet) until closer to the end of the baking time. At that point, you may want to turn the heat down.

Looking at this recipe, I think the high heat is vital to the success of the bread. Why?

1. The reported age of the recipe. I would wager that when this recipe was first developed, the original baker was using single-acting baking power. Long before double-acting (which is what most of us are used to), there was single-acting powder. It worked by allowing an acid to react with a base in the presence of a liquid (sound familiar?); the result was a release of gas that would lighten the mixture. In essence, there would be an increase in volume (prebake) that is similar to what results when creaming butter and sugar. By baking in a hot pan and hot oven, the gases created by the baking powder (as well as steam) expand to leaven the bread. While double-acting baking powder works in a similar fashion, it only releases about 2/3 of its gas in the bowl; the rest is released as the batter heats in the oven. In a baked good with a large amount of wheat flour, the batter can accommodate this late-release of gas because wheat gluten stretches. Cornmeal batters, however, don’t stretch; they need the high heat to expand the gases before the proteins and starches set.

2. That small amount of flour; why is it there and why does it support my claim that high heat is vital? I don't think it's enough for structure; I believe it's there to prevent the egg (and milk proteins) from coagulating too soon. A beaten whole egg coagulates (sets-up, scrambles) at about 156F, whereas a custard (egg and liquid) will set in the range of 175-185 (above that, the egg will coagulate). This is why some recipes/ techniques for making scrambled eggs have milk added to them--it's insurance that prevents a novice cook from ending up with an over-cooked and dry breakfast. If we add starch to that custard mixture, we add even more protection; recipes for pastry cream and homemade pudding can be safely boiled without fear of making a coagulated mess. Now apply that to Arthur’s recipe: scorching oven, hot pan, shallow mixture--and an egg. Without that flour, the egg and milk proteins would most-likely curdle, and if they curdle, they will do nothing for the structure of the bread.

My advice: either take dixiedragon’s advice and make 2 pans (which, by the way, is some of the most sensible baking advice I’ve ever read!), or if you must bake it in a large pan, scale it up, and proceed as normal. About 10-15 minutes in, take a look and make an assessment. If it’s browning too much, turn your oven down—just don’t do it in the beginning!

 

[Arthur Dent]

Thanks Saranac for that great information, I appreciate your chiming in. Lots of stuff there to think about.
I had planned to make a batch tonight, but when I got home from work my wife was making her version of cornbread to go with a big pot of soup that she also made. So, I'll have to wait a while. Her cornbread is... quite a bit different than mine, but she likes it so I eat it.
I'll make a batch in a week or two using the 1.5x scale, with 2 eggs just to be on the safe side. Eggs are smaller these days than they used to be anyway. The 2x in the 12" pan, well, I might never try that one. I wanted to make a batch to fit the 10" skillet because I have a couple of newly acquired 10" iron skillets, and making cornbread in them is a great way to help build up the seasoning. I make buttermilk biscuits (mentioned in another thread) in the 12" skillet, that has improved the seasoning noticeably over the last few months, so I don't really need to make that much cornbread.

 

[Arthur Dent]

This is why some recipes/ techniques for making scrambled eggs have milk added to them--it's insurance that prevents a novice cook from ending up with an over-cooked and dry breakfast.

Saranac, your whole post was chock full of good information, but this caught my attention especially. I have always wondered why so many people make their eggs this way. I really dislike eggs made this way. When I scramble eggs I crack them into a medium-hot skillet with with melted butter in, being careful not to break the yolks. Let the whites coagulate and mostly cook then break the yolks, let them cook some, then mix them into the whites. This way I end up with whites and yolks cooked separately but mixed together, if that makes sense. And its not dry at all. This is the way my mother made them, and both maternal and paternal grandmothers too. I have met very few people outside the family who scramble eggs this way.

 

[Susie]

Arthur, I will admit that that amount of flour is WAY less than my daddy used. He used 1 cup flour to 2 cups cornmeal. That holds the cornbread together, IMHO, along with the proteins in the eggs and milk.

My grandmother on my mom's side scrambled eggs that way, as well as my daddy, so it is not so unusual. Daddy grew up during the depression, and sometimes they had no milk because the cow went dry, so he used no milk in scrambled eggs, and often did not use it in the cornbread. He did use hot water in the corn bread if he did not use milk, though. And he heated his oil up in the cast iron skillet (and made sure it coated it) before he poured it hot into the batter. This gave a crunchy crust.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Clearly, the solution is to get 2 8-inch skillets and do 2 batches of cornbread.

One can never have too much cornbread! Leftover cornbread and a glass of milk, the perfect midnight snack!

 

[Susie]

One can never have too much cornbread! Leftover cornbread and a glass of milk, the perfect midnight snack!

I am going out on a limb here and guessing that you are originally from the south...