Natural Goat Milk Base misbehaves

[LucyFae]

I'm sorry this is so long, but I figured I'd include the troubleshooting I've tried in the hopes that someone might have run into this before, even though its a longshot, and i think most members are more familiar with CP.

Aztec natural goat milk is giving me a run for my money. The other bases i bought are fine so far (knock on wood). I've used well over a dozen different bases from a few companies, including craft store bases, but this is the first that's just impossible for me to figure out, and unfortunately, I bought (and at this point wasted) a lot, and I really can't waste anymore time/sanity/money on unusable soap, and was hoping maybe someone here could help.

They have no info listed online other than ingredients, nor did they send any in the shipment. No directions/melt point. I took a chance since they had a lot of good reviews on this base, but maybe that was a mistake. None of the reviews include anything about temp/directions. The ingredients they list on their website and soap packaging:

Vegetable Glycerin
Sodium Stearate
Soidum Myristate (their misspelling, lol)
Sodium Cocoate
Coconut Oil
Palm Oil
Sunflower Oil
Purified Water
Goat's Milk
Titanium Dioxide
Germall Plus (side note, isn't this recommended at Temps lower than 122 or so?? Don't recall seeing it in MP before)

In order to get the base to mostly melt (to the point i always work with MP, where it's hot, mostly liquid, but not boiling and i can stir in the tiny remaining chunks), I have to get it around 150F, but once it cools even a few degrees, it develops a skin that won't stir in, and an insane amount of clumps that almost look like the clumps when CP soaping too cool with Shea. After a few seconds or so, the clumps stick together and get stringy, like snot when making liquid soap, getting bigger and bigger over the next minute or so, until the soap is one giant, lumpy, pile of goop with half of it being solid and unworkable.

It solidifies even as I'm pouring, so if I'm doing a cavity mold, I get one decent looking bar, and the rest are lumpy with chunks. Half of the cavity mold is solidifying while part is still liquid and I'm pouring. All the bars I've gotten in the mold, even the nice looking soap, have ZERO lather after cooling and unmolding. Ive tried several different molds. The soap doesn't smell scorched, and the base isn't boiling during heating.

I've tried melting to only 140 and taking out the larger unmelted pieces, but it still develops skin and clumps within seconds. I tried melting to 120-130, but the base was half melted and still tacky.

I've tried scraping the sides and not scraping the sides, doesn't make much difference. I've tried heating in small increments from 130F all the way up to180F with similar results.

I've used the microwave at full power and half power, in increments from 5-30 seconds. I've used the double boiler from low up to medium. I melted as low and slow as possible. I've melted as fast as I can without boiling.

I've tried cutting the base in tiny, tiny uniform pieces. I've tried adding a minute amount of vegetable glycerin at various points when melting. I tried glass pyrex and my normal plastic containers. I've covered it with plastic wrap and left it uncovered while melting - there was quite a bit of sticky condensation on the plastic wrap, so I'm thinking it's losing a decent amount of something... maybe Glycerin when being heated.

I've tried using no additives and it still happens. I've tried everything I can think of, and spent days googling and searching different forums and communities, and nothing has worked. I'm at my absolute wits end with this, and around 10lbs of zero lather "experiments," and i still havent successfully melted this base. It's really frustrating, and although at first I figured it was me, now I'm wondering if it's a defective base, or if the germall plus has something to do with it, or something else?

I called aztec last week with an unrelated question and while several employees I spoke to were nice, I don't have high hopes they can help with what's happening here, and I honestly don't know what else I can do. If anyone has literally any suggestions, I'm willing to try anything. And seriously, thanks if you read all that, I'm probably rambling incoherently at this point.

 

[AliOop]

Yikes, sorry to hear that. I had this exact same thing happen with some unmarked base that I received as part of a destash (soaper closing her business). All of the base that was in the original packaging worked just fine, but this one large hunk that was partially used, and stored in a zip-top bag, just wouldn't melt right, and would harden up as soon as it started cooling - as in, hard like candle wax! Honestly, it was so frustrating. We ended up throwing out the entire mixing bowl with the spatula stuck in the concrete-like base.

To this day, I don't know if it was a bad batch, or she had mislabeled it as M&P when it was really something else.

Sorry, I realize none of that helps you, other than to commiserate and say that you aren't crazy. I hope you can get some answers from Aztec and that they will do right by you!

 

[LucyFae]

Yikes, sorry to hear that. I had this exact same thing happen with some unmarked base that I received as part of a destash (soaper closing her business). All of the base that was in the original packaging worked just fine, but this one large hunk that was partially used, and stored in a zip-top bag, just wouldn't melt right, and would harden up as soon as it started cooling - as in, hard like candle wax! Honestly, it was so frustrating. We ended up throwing out the entire mixing bowl with the spatula stuck in the concrete-like base.

To this day, I don't know if it was a bad batch, or she had mislabeled it as M&P when it was really something else.

Sorry, I realize none of that helps you, other than to commiserate and say that you aren't crazy. I hope you can get some answers from Aztec and that they will do right by you!

Thank you for commiserating. It's been super frustrating, but it definitely helps to know I'm not alone!

I did call Aztec. The rep told me to try heating it directly on the stove on low, not in a double boiler, in a steel pot. At least one other person has had this issue recently, since she said someone else just emailed about it, so I'm wondering if maybe this was a defective batch.

I haven't tried heating it directly on the stove, but I did ask her what the manufacturer gave for a melt temp, and she seemed surprised it was so high, at 55-65C, which definitely jived with my experience of it being the most fluid/workable around 150, although still not ideal. I don't think there's any way I'll be able to do any type of design, and even a single color plus scent will be difficult.

She said the water would evaporate off at such a high temp, but I tried melting it to 150F with a lid in the microwave, and while it's still pretty gooey, it's the most workable it's been. I'm thinking since it's winter, and my house gets really hot and super super dry, that's not helping the situation.

I did a search for the ingredients, and its definitely not SFIC, but it seems Candlewic sells the same natural goat milk mp. Candlewic was actually my first choice, but when I did my order, they were out of clear MP, which is the other base I regularly work with.

I'll update later with how it goes, in case anyone else is having the same issue. Had I not used most of the mp already, I mightve asked Aztec to replace it, but as is, I think I'm stuck with it.

And thanks again for listening to me!

 

[LucyFae]

It's been a while but I figured I'd post an update here.

I'm 90% sure part of my problem was the ambient temp/humidity in my house was too hot and dry, and this base is defective, missing maybe a little glycerin or something to keep it from drying out. I haven't had this issue with any other base before or since, and my house is always hot and dry in winter, but here goes.

After trying a million things (including - probably bashing my head against the wall) I eventually got it to a workable point. I eyeballed it the first time, but mixed half distilled water and half glycerin, and slowly added to the base in increments as it melted in the microwave, WHILE keeping a lid loosely over the top during heating so I wasn't losing more moisture. It isn't perfect, but it was at least workable, to the point I could add scent and lightly color with mica/alcohol mix, and get it in the mold.

The end product was usable. Lather still wasn't great, but if you held the soap under a stream of water to "hydrate" it, it did end up getting a little lather. Was at least good enough to wash my hands with, so not a total loss. Also make nice decorative soaps.

Approx. .25oz distilled water
Approx. .25oz glycerin
Per pound of base.

Microwave - stir - add a little mixture, stir in and put lid on - repeat.

If the soap looks too watery, skip adding more until you feel like you need it. A pipette works well here, so you can have some control over how much to add. I started with a couple drops (I cringe using this as a direction, sorry), and adjusted accordingly.

I never added any glycerin/water once I took it out to cool and pour, but I did keep it covered loosely until I was ready to add FO. Covered again until ready to pour. Covering is definitely ⅓ of the battle.

A few batches I didn't use the entire mixture, and saved it for the next batch in the same session. I didn't keep any overnight, and tossed whatever was left at the end of the session, and started with a fresh batch the next time.

I played around with the measurements, trying more water or less, and found this was what worked best for me. If anyone encounters similar issues with the natural MP bases, I'd suggest they do the same if returning the product isn't an option. I 100% would've returned it as a first choice.

It's not exactly the most scientific way, and normally I'd never advocate adding water to MP bases, but well… desperate times. It's been 4-5 months since I made these, and still have a ton sitting in my closet. They came out very pretty despite the issues, and the one I took out to use next to our kitchen sink seems fine. I'm by no means an expert, but soap gods forbid anyone else runs into similar issues, hopefully I've given you a decent starting point.

 

[dmcgee5034]

Wow, thanks for sharing. That sounds so frustrating!

 

[LucyFae]

Wow, thanks for sharing. That sounds so frustrating!

It certainly was!

I figured I'd give it another go. We've had record high rainfall here, and it's incredibly humid and warm, low 70s.

I didn't add the water/glycerin since I wanted to see how it performed without the ultra hot and dry environment my kitchen is in winter.

There was pretty much no difference. I heated with the lid in the microwave. Cutting it up, I noticed how dry the base is - there's zero residue on my hands like with most MP bases. I 100% think it was a defective batch now.

I wanted to swirl it with my clear base, but yeah... I actually took photos this time, and when it solidified in a huge lump on top of my purple clear base, I just pulled it out. It came out as one huge clump with nothing left behind.

At this point I'm going to email Aztec again, even though I'm sure it's too late to do anything about it. I hate throwing so much away, but maybe I can make some uncolored, single scent soaps and donate them somewhere (as long as they actually S
sud and work). Barring that or keeping the 10lbs+ I still have for personal hand soap, I might just have to bite the bullet and toss it.

 

[AliOop]

That is such a bummer! Maybe you can also try making some sugar scrubs or something with it.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

It certainly was!

I figured I'd give it another go. We've had record high rainfall here, and it's incredibly humid and warm, low 70s.

I didn't add the water/glycerin since I wanted to see how it performed without the ultra hot and dry environment my kitchen is in winter.

There was pretty much no difference. I heated with the lid in the microwave. Cutting it up, I noticed how dry the base is - there's zero residue on my hands like with most MP bases. I 100% think it was a defective batch now.

I wanted to swirl it with my clear base, but yeah... I actually took photos this time, and when it solidified in a huge lump on top of my purple clear base, I just pulled it out. It came out as one huge clump with nothing left behind.

At this point I'm going to email Aztec again, even though I'm sure it's too late to do anything about it. I hate throwing so much away, but maybe I can make some uncolored, single scent soaps and donate them somewhere (as long as they actually S
sud and work). Barring that or keeping the 10lbs+ I still have for personal hand soap, I might just have to bite the bullet and toss it.

It looks like it’s been plasticized. (Is that a thing?) I read from the beginning of this thread and my initial thought was that the base didn’t have enough water. It was interesting to read that your subsequent experiment may have demonstrated the problem was water loss. My other thought was that the manufacturing process may have overheated the base, causing water loss and/or a change in soap properties.

Did you try using the plain base straight from the package to see what the lather properties are before you do anything to it? In any case, I would consider sending some of the base to Aztec for the to investigate their faulty product in house.

 

[LucyFae]

It looks like it’s been plasticized. (Is that a thing?) I read from the beginning of this thread and my initial thought was that the base didn’t have enough water. It was interesting to read that your subsequent experiment may have demonstrated the problem was water loss. My other thought was that the manufacturing process may have overheated the base, causing water loss and/or a change in soap properties.

Did you try using the plain base straight from the package to see what the lather properties are before you do anything to it? In any case, I would consider sending some of the base to Aztec for the to investigate their faulty product in house.

It really is the strangest thing! I'd honestly agree it's like plastic. That's what it tends to feel like too. I definitely think they messed up somewhere. I got some of their other "natural" bases, and they all work like high quality melt and pour. This goat milk one is the only one that gave me issues. It's puzzling how this base has hundreds of 5 star reviews on trust pilot.

Straight from the package, it lathers like a very light lotion with zero bubbles, which is hard to wash off and leaves this... residue feeling on my hands. I actually tongue tested it for giggles, and it wasn't zappy, which is something at least.

I messed around with it some more, and actually got it more fluid by heating it up to almost 250F. Before I didn't go over 200, and Aztec specifically said the melt point was around 150F.

At 250F, it actually worked the best it has so far. Not enough to make me happy with my purchase, but it stayed fluid long enough to pour in the mold, and once cool, lathers like most soap with real bubbles!! I even made a second bar with FO, but the base gets skin almost immediately, and clumps around 230, so the bar with FO has little clumps in it. It still lathers better, but adding RT FO or any additive into scorching hot MP isn't ideal.

I'm going to try calling them again tomorrow, since I haven't been able to find an email. It'll be interesting to see what they say. I kinda wish I'd taken more chemistry courses in college, so I could figure out what is actually happening. The water loss was my top guess, but I have no idea if the high temperature plays into that somehow.

Anyhow, thanks for reading and commenting on my insane journey! Fingers crossed enough people complained and Aztec has some answers!

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

One question to ask when you contact Aztec is, who actually manufactures their soap bases? Looking at the website it appears, like most of our other suppliers, that they are a retail/reseller, not a manufacturer. If they have not made soap from the specific batch of melt and pour base that you received, they may not have experienced the problem. Aztecs’s melt and pour blocks look different than those I have seen on other websites or ordered. Is there any possibility they re-melt bulk bases to package for sale? Just trying to cover the bases of where mistakes could have been made with your specific batch.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I've only made M & P soap once. I was fortunate to have a soaping buddy with years of experience under her belt to guide me. The easiest part was melting the base -- which I did in the microwave as seen in this video. Easy Peasy.

Soap Queen TV - How to Make Melt & Pour Soap

If I were you, I would send Aztec the link to this thread and ask for my money back. It really is a shame that you have gone to all that trouble to make what should have been a breeze. They may not agree that they owe you a refund but it doesn't hurt ask. Politely.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[Annabella]

It's been a while but I figured I'd post an update here.

I'm 90% sure part of my problem was the ambient temp/humidity in my house was too hot and dry, and this base is defective, missing maybe a little glycerin or something to keep it from drying out. I haven't had this issue with any other base before or since, and my house is always hot and dry in winter, but here goes.

After trying a million things (including - probably bashing my head against the wall) I eventually got it to a workable point. I eyeballed it the first time, but mixed half distilled water and half glycerin, and slowly added to the base in increments as it melted in the microwave, WHILE keeping a lid loosely over the top during heating so I wasn't losing more moisture. It isn't perfect, but it was at least workable, to the point I could add scent and lightly color with mica/alcohol mix, and get it in the mold.

The end product was usable. Lather still wasn't great, but if you held the soap under a stream of water to "hydrate" it, it did end up getting a little lather. Was at least good enough to wash my hands with, so not a total loss. Also make nice decorative soaps.

Approx. .25oz distilled water
Approx. .25oz glycerin
Per pound of base.

Microwave - stir - add a little mixture, stir in and put lid on - repeat.

If the soap looks too watery, skip adding more until you feel like you need it. A pipette works well here, so you can have some control over how much to add. I started with a couple drops (I cringe using this as a direction, sorry), and adjusted accordingly.

I never added any glycerin/water once I took it out to cool and pour, but I did keep it covered loosely until I was ready to add FO. Covered again until ready to pour. Covering is definitely ⅓ of the battle.

A few batches I didn't use the entire mixture, and saved it for the next batch in the same session. I didn't keep any overnight, and tossed whatever was left at the end of the session, and started with a fresh batch the next time.

I played around with the measurements, trying more water or less, and found this was what worked best for me. If anyone encounters similar issues with the natural MP bases, I'd suggest they do the same if returning the product isn't an option. I 100% would've returned it as a first choice.

It's not exactly the most scientific way, and normally I'd never advocate adding water to MP bases, but well… desperate times. It's been 4-5 months since I made these, and still have a ton sitting in my closet. They came out very pretty despite the issues, and the one I took out to use next to our kitchen sink seems fine. I'm by no means an expert, but soap gods forbid anyone else runs into similar issues, hopefully I've given you a decent starting point.

I was interested to see you mention Germall. I have been making both soaps (M&P, Cold process and hot process) and body products for years, which require the use of a preservative if they contain water but have never heard of, or used it in soaps. It's efficiency is useless at temperatures higher than 60 degrees Celsius (sorry I'm Australian and we use metric). That's 140 Fahrenheit. I would leave it out really, it is costly here where I live and I can't for the life of me see a use for it. ( I use Germall 11)

 

[LucyFae]

That is such a bummer! Maybe you can also try making some sugar scrubs or something with it.

That's actually a good idea. I was thinking certain embeds too.

One question to ask when you contact Aztec is, who actually manufactures their soap bases? Looking at the website it appears, like most of our other suppliers, that they are a retail/reseller, not a manufacturer. If they have not made soap from the specific batch of melt and pour base that you received, they may not have experienced the problem. Aztecs’s melt and pour blocks look different than those I have seen on other websites or ordered. Is there any possibility they re-melt bulk bases to package for sale? Just trying to cover the bases of where mistakes could have been made with your specific batch.

Good questions, which I asked, thanks! I did find an email finally, and have been waiting since Wednesday or Thursday for a response, if I get one at all. I linked this thread and offered to send some back, so we'll see! I remember from my research last year they had the same ingredients as one other company... I wanna say Candlewic.

I've only made M & P soap once. I was fortunate to have a soaping buddy with years of experience under her belt to guide me. The easiest part was melting the base -- which I did in the microwave as seen in this video. Easy Peasy.

Soap Queen TV - How to Make Melt & Pour Soap

If I were you, I would send Aztec the link to this thread and ask for my money back. It really is a shame that you have gone to all that trouble to make what should have been a breeze. They may not agree that they owe you a refund but it doesn't hurt ask. Politely.

GOOD LUCK!

Hahaha. Thanks for the laugh! MP is usually so much easier than all this, which is part of why I like it - if I only have half an hour, I can still make something nice.

I took your advice and linked this post, but it's been nearly a week with no response from Aztec. Not even a "thanks for the heads up, we'll look into it." That itself has me rethinking the order I was about to put in.

 

[LucyFae]

I was interested to see you mention Germall. I have been making both soaps (M&P, Cold process and hot process) and body products for years, which require the use of a preservative if they contain water but have never heard of, or used it in soaps. It's efficiency is useless at temperatures higher than 60 degrees Celsius (sorry I'm Australian and we use metric). That's 140 Fahrenheit. I would leave it out really, it is costly here where I live and I can't for the life of me see a use for it. ( I use Germall 11)

Same here! I don't make a lot requiring preservatives, but I have looked into it extensively because my niece wants me to make her a sugar scrub, and I briefly toyed with the idea of making lotion before going the lazy route and buying a base.

I was surprised to find the preservative in it as well, and I'm definitely confused to it's purpose in MP. It's not what I'd call cheap in the US either, and I have no idea why they'd include it, especially with a melt point higher than Germall's usage.

I am 90% sure Aztec doesn't make this base themselves. I saw the exact same formulation at one other supplier, so I'm guessing they get it from a smaller wholesaler, but I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

 

[LucyFae]

Aztec did get back to me. They didn't answer any of my questions, but there were a couple people CCd in in the email, and they're sending me... something? She said a new bar lol, after confirming it's a different stock from when I ordered last year.

It'll be interesting to see how this goes! I might have to figure out how to make a video!

 

[LucyFae]

So my Aztec order arrived today and dear lord, they sent me ten pounds of it!!! It looks very similar to what I have, but slightly less dry. Hopefully that's a good sign!

I haven't opened it yet, but I can't wait to try it and see what happens. Will report back once I get a chance to try it out.