Natron?

[tomahtashi]

Has anyone here used natron or baking soda (in place of lye) in soap making?

 

[MelissaG]

Why would you those in place of lye? No lye, no soap. And natron or baking soda is in no way remotely like lye and won't have the same effect.

 

[Vicki C]

This post might be helpful - baking soda is an alkali substance, and will make soap, but it’s more difficult to do so.
Post in thread 'Just three ingredients... olive oil, water, and... ... ... baking soda?!?!'
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...e-oil-water-and-baking-soda.86315/post-923276

 

[tomahtashi]

Why would you those in place of lye? No lye, no soap. And natron or baking soda is in no way remotely like lye and won't have the same effect.

I've made regular cold-processed soap (with lye), but I was interested in trying something different

 

[tomahtashi]

This post might be helpful - baking soda is an alkali substance, and will make soap, but it’s more difficult to do so.
Post in thread 'Just three ingredients... olive oil, water, and... ... ... baking soda?!?!'
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...e-oil-water-and-baking-soda.86315/post-923276

Thanks, I'll give that a look

 

[DeeAnna]

Baking soda (sodium BIcarbonate) won't work with any normal soap making process. Very high heat is required to force the saponification reaction.

Natron contains some sodium carbonate, so yes it can be used in a "boiled" soap making method. It's a valid ingredient to try if you are researching historical soap making methods. Back in the day, however, it was considered to be a poor substitute for ash-based lye.

You might be happier using washing soda rather than natron, if soap is your goal. Washing soda is pure sodium carbonate so it will be more effective.

Carbonate-based lyes will foam and release CO2 gas during saponification and they will require a long heated cook with constant stirring and careful management of heat input. You cannot use carbonate lye with a cold process method or even with a normal hot process method.

 

[BWt]

Baking soda (sodium BIcarbonate) won't work with any normal soap making process. Very high heat is required to force the saponification reaction.

Natron contains some sodium carbonate, so yes it can be used in a "boiled" soap making method. It's a valid ingredient to try if you are researching historical soap making methods. Back in the day, however, it was considered to be a poor substitute for ash-based lye.

You might be happier using washing soda rather than natron, if soap is your goal. Washing soda is pure sodium carbonate so it will be more effective.

Carbonate-based lyes will foam and release CO2 gas during saponification and they will require a long heated cook with constant stirring and careful management of heat input. You cannot use carbonate lye with a cold process method or even with a normal hot process method.

Was so hoping for a @DeeAnna response to this question. Love the history of soap making science. Thank you for your detailed explanation.

 

[tomahtashi]

Baking soda (sodium BIcarbonate) won't work with any normal soap making process. Very high heat is required to force the saponification reaction.

Natron contains some sodium carbonate, so yes it can be used in a "boiled" soap making method. It's a valid ingredient to try if you are researching historical soap making methods. Back in the day, however, it was considered to be a poor substitute for ash-based lye.

You might be happier using washing soda rather than natron, if soap is your goal. Washing soda is pure sodium carbonate so it will be more effective.

Carbonate-based lyes will foam and release CO2 gas during saponification and they will require a long heated cook with constant stirring and careful management of heat input. You cannot use carbonate lye with a cold process method or even with a normal hot process method.

DeeAnna,
That was excellent information - very knowledgeable. Thank you!
I was indeed using natron to research historical soap.
Where can I get more information about ash-based lye?

 

[MelissaG]

DeeAnna,
That was excellent information - very knowledgeable. Thank you!
I was indeed using natron to research historical soap.
Where can I get more information about ash-based lye?

Ash based kye is also called potash. Basically, burn trees until they turn to ash, and filter it with water through cheesecloth or something of the sort. You get lye. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the essentials. The thing about potash is that it's not sodium hydroxide, it's potassium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide makes for a very soft soap and is usually used in things like body washes and shaving soap. That's how the ancients used to make soap. You can find potassium hydroxide in minerals but for us, it's much easier just to burn wood to get it. Or buy it. Wood burning only gives about 10% recovery of lye while modern purification techniques will make sure it's closer to 100% nearly without impurities. Personally, I'd just buy it, it is less likely to result in potential reactions with the potential impurities in the lye.

 

[DeeAnna]

Actually ash-based lye (potash) is mainly potassium CARBONATE not potassium hydroxide. You can convert the carbonate to the hydroxide by reacting the ash-based lye with slaked lime. But potash, in and of itself, is carbonate based.

Potassium hydroxide, like sodium hydroxide, is never found in nature. It's not mined or otherwise sourced from nature, it's made by humans. These alkalis are far too reactive to remain in pure form in the natural world.

 

[tomahtashi]

Ash based kye is also called potash. Basically, burn trees until they turn to ash, and filter it with water through cheesecloth or something of the sort. You get lye. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the essentials. The thing about potash is that it's not sodium hydroxide, it's potassium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide makes for a very soft soap and is usually used in things like body washes and shaving soap. That's how the ancients used to make soap. You can find potassium hydroxide in minerals but for us, it's much easier just to burn wood to get it. Or buy it. Wood burning only gives about 10% recovery of lye while modern purification techniques will make sure it's closer to 100% nearly without impurities. Personally, I'd just buy it, it is less likely to result in potential reactions with the potential impurities in the lye.

Thank you! That does seem like a lot of work to get the ash

 

[akseattle]

@tomahtashi I don't know where you'd get more information about ash-based lye, but I watched an episode of Naked and Afraid about a year ago.

One of the contestants made soap out there on the savanna. She used the fat of an animal they killed. I hadn't actually made CP soap yet, only M&P, but I'd been reading about CP soaping. They didn't focus very much on the process she used- except they showed her boiling the fat. I assumed she used ashes from the fire to achieve saponification.

I assume the show is at least partially fake because they are filming close up and getting conversations and I've not heard of anyone being attacked by a wild animal. But, she ended up with a bar of soap that looked pretty real. It looked like her ingredients were fat, wood, fire, and water.