My first shaving soap is a success!

[Gtrs-N-Golf]

Thanks for the comments and pointers! I'll try a drop of glycerine next time I use it. I'm going to let it cure for a week or 2 and see what that does.

I ended up using 10% PPO glycerine and the remainder of the 5% of super fat was a combo of shea and lanolin. I can't measure that small of amounts on my scale but I do know I ended up with +15% PPO in the end with 10% of that being glycerine.

Next up -- tallow. Probably something really close to the silver fox recipe.

 

[Gtrs-N-Golf]

First tallow soap is out of the pot. This is a recipe I've been wanting to try out for a while. It's mainly Tallow, kokum & coconut super fatted with glycerine, shea, lanolin and avocado oils. It's just been out of the pot for a few hours but I couldn't help but whip up a lather. It's a very different kind of lather from the veggie version. It's dense and unctuous. I'll be interested to see how it cures. I palm lathered it and my hands feel like I just left the spa from a world class manicure. I have no idea how it'll shave, but for conditioning and creamy lather it's a home run!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Again, the glycerine is nothing to do with the superfat. Please try to break that link in your thinking.

 

[DeeAnna]

I second The Gent. Glycerin does not saponify, so by definition it cannot be a superfat. Best to just call it an additive to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[LBussy]

You can tell it's different just by the pics. Do share the shave report after it has a chance to cure a bit.

 

[Gtrs-N-Golf]

@LBussy will do!

@The Efficacious Gentleman and @DeeAnna thanks for the clarification. Obviously I'm very much new to this and have a lot to learn.

 

[DeeAnna]

We all have been newbies at one time or another -- welcome to the club!

 

[Lathersuds]

I know this post is quite old but having made shaving soaps before I use a 70/30 ratio of koh to naoh as my lye. I also add sweet almond oil and Shea Butter, wanted to emulate am Italian soap that uses the same ingredients. Using the stearic acid along with the rest of my oils it is hard to mix since the stearic acid traces almost instantly, so I'm going to melt the stearic acid separate and add it later to the other oils as some has suggested.
My question is do I add all the lye water to the other oils all at once then add the stearic acid later on or do I split the lye water enough to saponify the other oils and add the rest of the lye water when I add the stearic acid into the rest of the oils? I also thought of using just koh to saponify the stearic acid only and the 70/30 for the other oils and butter, problem is calculating how much lye to use when I split them up if this is a good idea?
Also if I were to use just koh for the stearic acid how do I calculate how much koh to use just for the stearic acid especially since I'll be mixing it in with the other oils and butters saponified with the 70/30 lye ratio, is there a soap calc out there I can use to determine how much lye I need to saponify the stearic acid based on weight instead of percentage? And also since I'll be combining it with the rest of the other oils and butters that already have some lye added will this be an accurate use of the amount of lye even if I calculated the correct amount of lye to use for just the stearic acid because I'll be combining it later to the other oils that already have saponified to a certain extent?

Any advice, recommendation is really appreciated.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...My question is do I add all the lye water to the other oils all at once then add the stearic acid later on..."

Yes. That is how I do it anyways. I don't think the other way will be wrong or bad -- it just adds one more step to remember.

"..I also thought of using just koh to saponify the stearic acid only and the 70/30 for the other oils and butter, problem is calculating how much lye to use when I split them up if this is a good idea?..."

Don't know if it's a good idea or not -- some shave soaps are apparently made this way and I suppose there's a reason for that. Might want to give it a try and see if it's worth the trouble.

"...Also if I were to use just koh for the stearic acid how do I calculate how much koh to use just for the stearic acid..."

The way I'd do it is treat the two parts of this soap -- the fat part and the stearic acid part -- as two completely separate soaps. You'd calculate the lye for one part as one recipe and the lye for the other part as a second recipe.

"...is there a soap calc out there I can use to determine how much lye I need to saponify the stearic acid based on weight instead of percentage?..."

Soapcalc, summerbeemeadow, soapee, etc. -- pretty much all of the calcs will calculate recipes based on weights as well as percentages. I'm a little puzzled ???

"... since I'll be combining it with the rest of the other oils and butters that already have some lye added will this be an accurate use of the amount of lye even if I calculated the correct amount of lye to use for just the stearic acid because I'll be combining it later to the other oils that already have saponified to a certain extent?..."

Perhaps you may be overthinking this. Or maybe I'm not understanding your thoughts correctly.

If you calculate the lye to sufficiently saponify one part of your fats or stearic acid ... and calculate the lye to sufficiently saponify the other part ... then why would it make any difference if you later combined the two parts into one batch of soap? The lye needed for sufficient saponification of the two independent parts is the lye needed for sufficient saponification of the whole.

 

[Lathersuds]

DeeAnna, thank you so much for your response, you've definitely cleared up and answered a lot of questions, you were right I'm over thinking it and it just confused more, reason I asked if it's ok to use the same amount of lye even if I calculated it correctly using soap calc and mixing it with the rest later on as I've read somewhere how some do it in stages and as it gets hotter initially with the early stages adding the stearic acid later on along with the calculated koh may ruin the batch as it will obviously get hotter even more as soon as I add more koh along with the the stearic acid, but I may be over thinking it as you had mentioned.

I apologize for not responding sooner as I was going to wait until I figured out my final recipe for this batch and do some math on it.

I do have a couple more questions if you don't mind, last time I used a bit too much water so had to wait longer to let it dry completely and also wanted to let it cure longer as I have read the longer you let it cure the better, it did perform well but by that time the scent has vanished and became unscented, perhaps I will need to use more fragrance oil / essential oil I plan to let it sit at least another 2 weeks to even several weeks after the cook, I imagine the soapers that do this must use a lot of frgrance or essential oils as the fragrance get weaker the longer I let it dry.

Also when I calculate the recipe separately since I'll be using both koh and naoh, the water required when I calculate for the 100% koh and 100% naoh I always need more water for the koh as compared to the naoh, how should I calculate the water I need? It seems even using the water required for koh is not enough which is why I added more water last time and it seems like I have used too much because my earlier attempt I couldn't mix it hardly due to the stearic acid hardens up the mixture too fast.

This time however I will separate the stearic acid so I'll have ample time to mix the other oils.

My last question is that I noticed some soapers use sodium chloride and others also add potassium carbonate.

I imagine this would have something to do with making the soap dry faster, in the case of sodium chloride which is basically salt with water how much should I use and when do I add it in? Is there a certain ready made sodium chloride for soap?
or a recipe to make one depending on the concentration?

I do use sodium lactate but I think the use of sodium chloride will help the soap dry faster or even make it firmir? Sodium lactate helps in making the soap more firm and easier to mold, but it does bring in more moisture since it's also a humectant.

Also soapers that use sodium chloride are usually the ones that use koh exclusively for their lye.

I look forward to more of your valuable advice and knowledge.

I'll be sure to post my results once I'm able to make this next batch of shaving soap. Thank you very much for all your help.

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey there -- I have a gentle suggestion for you to consider. You are asking technical questions that require careful thought to answer fully. Unfortunately, your "stream of consciousness" writing style is unusually difficult to follow. I first have to parse what you're saying, and then I have think about how to answer. Please make an effort to write more clearly and concisely, so it's not so difficult for the reader to understand your words. You will have a much better chance of getting the valuable advice you are seeking.

 

[Lathersuds]

I apologize for the way I wrote my questions. I actually just read it and I can see how confusing it sounds.

I get too far ahead of my thoughts and just jump to writing my questions and comments from one topic to another, I realized I'm trying to ask and explain too many questions and topics in a single paragraph jumping from one topic to another, thank you for pointing that out to me.

I hope I haven't confused you yet =).

I should point out that I understood your explanations and answers to my previous questions clearly and I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

I'll try to make this short and sweet and to the point.

1. I noticed some soapers add Potassium Carbonate and others add Sodium Chloride, from what I understand as some people had tried to explain from another forum is that it's mainly used to expedite the drying process of hot processed shaving soap or to make it firmer. ( I use Sodium lactate to make it firmer and easier to mold)

2. I am more concerned about speeding up the drying process or any other benefits when adding Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate but I have no idea how much to add or how to make it when it comes to using Sodium Chloride, I know it's just salt but there's still the question of how to use it, when to add it and how to make it and why it's used?

3. I noticed most of the soapers that add Sodium Chloride are also the ones that only use Koh to saponify their shaving soaps which makes sense since their usually soft with no Sodium Hydroxide like Marten de Candre and a few others with similar ingredients.

3. Potassium Carbonate are also used by some soapers that use both Koh and Naoh.
I googled and found Potassium Carbonate for sale for soaps but it does not explain why or how they should be used.

I'm hoping you would have more information regarding the use of both Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate in shaving soaps,or anyone out there that could chime in.

I should mention that these ingredients are usually listed last in the list of ingredients in shaving soaps so clearly it's not part of the main ingredients but I feel it could make quite a difference in the end result of a shaving soap.

I hope I have not confused again with my writing and thank you so much for all the help and your contributions.

 

[DeeAnna]

1. I noticed some soapers add Potassium Carbonate and others add Sodium Chloride, from what I understand as some people had tried to explain from another forum is that it's mainly used to expedite the drying process of hot processed shaving soap or to make it firmer. ( I use Sodium lactate to make it firmer and easier to mold)

Use whatever you like to get the soap qualities you want. I don't use any of these chemicals in my shave soap, so I can't comment on exactly what qualities people think they bring to this type of soap. Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts. The only caution I have is please don't confuse the process of curing a soap with the firmness or texture of the soap.

2. I am more concerned about speeding up the drying process or any other benefits when adding Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate but I have no idea how much to add or how to make it when it comes to using Sodium Chloride, I know it's just salt but there's still the question of how to use it, when to add it and how to make it and why it's used?

Sodium chloride is added to a potassium soap to partly convert the potassium soap to sodium soap. This will tend to firm up the soap to some degree. You can achieve similar results by using a blend of NaOH and KOH.

Again -- adding NaCl will NOT reduce the cure time for any soap. Don't confuse the change in texture/firmness/softness by using an additive with the goals of curing -- loss of moisture, development of crystal structure, and increase in mildness. A hard NaOH soap with 30% water, for example, has just as much water to lose as a softer KOH soap with the same 30% water.

3. I noticed most of the soapers that add Sodium Chloride are also the ones that only use Koh to saponify their shaving soaps which makes sense since their usually soft with no Sodium Hydroxide like Marten de Candre and a few others with similar ingredients.

See #2.

3. Potassium Carbonate are also used by some soapers that use both Koh and Naoh.
I googled and found Potassium Carbonate for sale for soaps but it does not explain why or how they should be used.

Potassium carbonate is the potassium version of washing soda (sodium carbonate). It is an alkali and it will saponify easily with fatty acids (stearic acid, for example) to form soap. If not used in saponification, it can increase the firmness and apparent dryness of the soap. It can help a soap function somewhat better when used in hard water.

I would add a carbonate to a hot processed soap, and I would stir it into the soap at the end of the cook. I would not add it at the beginning of saponification to ensure the hydroxide lye (NaOH and/or KOH) is doing the full saponification.

 

[LBussy]

A few points addressing the core issues as I see them.

Soap Hardness: Who cares? I can make pucks from 100% KOH soap, I cannot think of any other reason to want shave soap to be hard. We want shaving soap to perform on the face, it does not need to last in the shower. I prefer soap made from 100% KOH so I skip the drama of using NaOH and KOH together. To me 100% KOH creates a soap with more of the shaving performance properties I want. Certainly that's subjective, but what's not is there is more complexity to using two lyes. If it's not needed, why bother? My favorite commercial soaps are KOH only.

Some soapers I respect very much use two lyes and they have their reasons. I just don't understand them.

Salts and carbonates and Bears, oh my! As I said above I don't believe a shaving soap needs to be as hard as a bath soap. It needs to be able to be packaged and that's it. A large number of learned shavers use soaps that come in tubs; these are called "croaps". This is a portmanteau of"cream" and "soap" because it has properties of both. It can often be easily molded, but it is loaded on the brush just like a soap is. The hardness ranges from Dove bar to cream cheese.

Cella is the archetypical Italian croap. It's packed in a tub typically, as are many/most other croaps. Arko is a (I think) Turkish croap that comes in a stick form. It has polarized wet shavers; I'm personally not a fan but for the price and performance it's hard to beat. I'm just not a fan of the scent. Some people call it citron, I call it urinal puck. Anyway, if you are getting something from Amazon anyway, grab a stick of that someday to check out and compare. It performs incredibly well.

Anyway, that's a long roundabout way to say your shaving soap does not need to be as hard as a bath soap, and you can have whatever form you like with a 100% KOH soap. It is completely acceptable, and even desirable, to package shaving soap in a tub/tin.

I do add something which does make the finished soap harder, I use Sodium Lactate. I add this because it makes the soap easier to handle when cooking. For some reason unknown to me it makes it smoother and easier to stir while hot, and this makes it easier to mold. When cooled it seems to be quite a bit harder, but not so hard that it does not load the brush properly. It also looks creamier when done and loaded in the tin. I have a picture of "plain" soap, and soap to which I have added lactate and Titanium Dioxide here:

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/2015/12/basic-or-bedazzled/

If you are selling soap (or intend to), the difference will be interesting.

Curing: A hot process shaving soap will exhibit most of it's finished properties right after cooling. My own process does not rely on a cure to dry the soap to increase hardness in any way. I did say "most properties" though. As DeeAnna says there's that change in the molecular structure within the soap that still happens as it cures. I'm sure there's a dissertation or at least a thesis in there for someone to figure it all out. My own experience tells me that there are declining improvements after 2-4 weeks. I try not to give shave soap away that's less than 2 weeks old.

So there's my $0.02, worth what you paid for it. Am I opinionated? You betcha. Any wet shaver who also makes his own soap will be opinionated.

 

[Lathersuds]

DeeAnna thank you for responding to my questions, I understand about not confusing the curing process to the firmness of the soap.

Your explanation with the use of Potassium Carbonate clarifies it for me.

I've actually been making shaving soaps for quite a bit and have tried different formulas except for the sodium chloride and potassium carbonate part.
I appreciate your help.

@Lee thanks for chiming in as well, I use sodium lactate as well and do agree koh makes for a better lather compared to naoh. I just prefer to use 30%naoh when other ingredients such as tallow and lighter oils are added in, it's just what works best for me but I'm glad it suits your needs using pure koh for your use, that's what I like about this hobby is you get to make the soap that suits you best.

 

[beshaved]

YAY!! I have finally reached the newest part of this thread!!
Wow.. It's been a long two weeks reading this.

I am new to the soap making and I made Shaving Soap for my first try.

I tried the original recipe from SongWind.

500g CO and SA
added 100 g Glycerin and 50g Castor Oil to the final part.

But since it is my first time making soap, I have a few questions:
1. Is it alright to add Castor Oil instead of Shea butter (just like everyone talked about)?
2. I was using a stove, so I didn't leave the soap cooking for hours. Is it alright? I do not have a slow cooker to use.
3. Using all KOH, the soap is too soft to mold. I just put it in a container. I do hope to make it a bit hard. Just wondering why some people able to mold (100% KOH) the soap. Do I need to cook it again? For how long, as I am using a stove?

The lather from my batch is creamy, thick, and slick. I love it.

Thank you all that have been throwing ideas in this thread.

ps: The lather even holds itself for 2.5 hours. Only losing a tiny bit of volume. I initially wanted to photograph a 1 hour performance, but totally forgot to do it.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Cooking longer can reduce some of the water which could explain why yours is softer.

If the soap doesn't zap then you're okay, regardless of how short the cook was. If you have ever touched a 9v battery to your tongue, that is what zap from soap feels like. To test, I always get some soapy water on a finger and touch that to my tongue first and if that is okay then I try the soap itself. The zap tells you that there is still unsaponified lye in your soap

Edit. As for changes to a recipe, I always ask "what is the soap missing?" There is no need to add something in to make the soap slicker if it is slick enough, likewise no need to increase lather stability if it lasts more than 2 hours untouched.

 

[LBussy]

1. Is it alright to add Castor Oil instead of Shea butter (just like everyone talked about)?

Since this represents the superfat, I'm not a fan of that idea - or would not be for me personally. This is the part that's left on your skin for conditioning. Castor is ever so slightly more comedogenic, but beyond that I think it feels slimy. Shea leaves a silky feel that I prefer. Still, it's not a whole bunch so it's not a huge deal.

2. I was using a stove, so I didn't leave the soap cooking for hours. Is it alright? I do not have a slow cooker to use.
3. Using all KOH, the soap is too soft to mold. I just put it in a container. I do hope to make it a bit hard. Just wondering why some people able to mold (100% KOH) the soap. Do I need to cook it again? For how long, as I am using a stove?

As Craig said, longer cook = less water = harder soap. I don't worry about the soap being hard though because this is not a bath bar. I prefer them slightly soft like the Italian croaps. For this reason, and because I believe it makes a superior shave soap, I also use 100% KOH.

Congratulations on reaching the end of the thread, and your first batch!

 

[beshaved]

This is how I build the lather using the soap that I made.

https://youtu.be/uTczRr7nIQY

It was so "thirsty" that I had to add water frequently!

 

[LBussy]

KOH based soaps are quite a bit more thirsty than NaOH. I believe that's part of why if provides a (subjective) better shave experience. The more water you can hold on your skin, the better it will be. That's why glycerin makes such a positive impact.