My first shaving soap is a success!
- Thread starter songwind
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kchaystack
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http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html#.VR6Fv_nF98E
Of course opinions are going to vary widely. But this is a good start.
Torque off the line
Rahstyle
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thanks!
vmakkers
Well-Known Member
Should I order liquid KOH or flake KOH for this recipe?
If you order liquid, make sure that you know what % solution it is so you know how much to use. Also, with any sort of lye in any form (beads, flakes, liquid etc) it's worth knowing the purity
LBussy
Well-Known Member
Hard to say since we don't know where you are or who you may be ordering from. If you are in the US check prices at The Lye Guy and Essentials depot. I've only ever ordered flake.
vmakkers
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the help. I'm in California and was looking into buying some from a local chemical company, Sierra Chemical Company, and they offer KOH in a bunch of different forms. Liquid and flakes all at varying percentages. I think I'm going to just pick up some in flake form. Thanks again for the suggestions
LBussy
Well-Known Member
*Generally* getting lye from a soap or bio-diesel supplier will be less expensive. Technical grade, while arguably a better risk for purity, is likely a bit more.
FlybyStardancer
Well-Known Member
Okay, after planning for a year... I'm FINALLY going to do this! I measured out the stearic tonight, but I'm going to soap tomorrow (my one day off this week). I need the pick-me-up, since this week got off to a crummy start.
And I started rereading the thread and noticed one suggestion about making sticks out of the soft soap by putting it in containers... Well, I have a bunch of lotion bar/deodorant containers... I might load one up with the soap just for a personal test, and then make the log/pucks out of the rest.
I would like some advice... Normally I add citric acid to my water before the lye, to make sodium citrate. Well, I'm planning on going the 80%KOH/20%NaOH, and I'm adding the extra lye to neutralize it to the NaOH amount... Should I add the NaOH first and wait for it to cool down before adding the KOH, to make sure the citric reacts with the NaOH specifically?
And I started rereading the thread and noticed one suggestion about making sticks out of the soft soap by putting it in containers... Well, I have a bunch of lotion bar/deodorant containers... I might load one up with the soap just for a personal test, and then make the log/pucks out of the rest.
I would like some advice... Normally I add citric acid to my water before the lye, to make sodium citrate. Well, I'm planning on going the 80%KOH/20%NaOH, and I'm adding the extra lye to neutralize it to the NaOH amount... Should I add the NaOH first and wait for it to cool down before adding the KOH, to make sure the citric reacts with the NaOH specifically?
That is an interesting point that has made me realise that I am a bit of a twit sometimes!
I split my CA between the two lots of lye water (KOH and naOH) which was very fiddly. I will in future, and suggest here, that you add all of the CA to the lye water for the NaOH and add the NaOH in to that rather than adding the CA to the oils. I don't know how long it takes for the CA and NaOH to make Sodium Citrate, but hopefully it'll be ready by the time you add your lye in to the oils
That said, I don't think that potassium citrate would be a bad thing..............................
I split my CA between the two lots of lye water (KOH and naOH) which was very fiddly. I will in future, and suggest here, that you add all of the CA to the lye water for the NaOH and add the NaOH in to that rather than adding the CA to the oils. I don't know how long it takes for the CA and NaOH to make Sodium Citrate, but hopefully it'll be ready by the time you add your lye in to the oils
That said, I don't think that potassium citrate would be a bad thing..............................
LBussy
Well-Known Member
I think those salts will find the balance they like eventually no matter which lye you react them with. If the ions "migrate" from one to the other you still have your balance at the molecular level, so just do what's easy.
Speaking of which, "easy" is not worrying about two different lyes. You can make a moldable shave soap with KOH only. I prefer soaps made like that as the sodium salts just don't seem to hydrate/protect as well. No matter what though, it will be a fine soap equal to most of the better ones available commercially.
Craig I agree - potassium citrate, potassium lactate ... they seem to work well in my recent tests. I need to do more experiments with the sodium salts so I can compare, but the beneficial chelating effects are there in potassium soaps without having to use sodium.
Speaking of which, "easy" is not worrying about two different lyes. You can make a moldable shave soap with KOH only. I prefer soaps made like that as the sodium salts just don't seem to hydrate/protect as well. No matter what though, it will be a fine soap equal to most of the better ones available commercially.
Craig I agree - potassium citrate, potassium lactate ... they seem to work well in my recent tests. I need to do more experiments with the sodium salts so I can compare, but the beneficial chelating effects are there in potassium soaps without having to use sodium.
So, are you suggesting to add the Citric Acid to the lye water after all of the NaOH and KOH have been dissolved?
(relax, don't worry, and have a homebrew!)
That would certainly make things simple.
-Dave
LBussy
Well-Known Member
I am.
You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH but it would not matter a whole lot which one - it would change your balance slightly by some unknown factor but the amount of neutralization and lye efficacy would remain unchanged.
You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH but it would not matter a whole lot which one - it would change your balance slightly by some unknown factor but the amount of neutralization and lye efficacy would remain unchanged.
"... I don't know how long it takes for the CA and NaOH to make Sodium Citrate..."
It doesn't take very long, Gent. What's happening is the citric acid is mostly disassociating (breaking apart) into a citrate ion and a hydrogen ion. When you dissolve NaOH in water you're doing much the same thing -- the sodium hydroxide dissociates into a sodium ion and a hydroxide ion -- and that's pretty fast, hey? Same with the citric acid.
When the two are mixed, some of the citrate and sodium ions will quickly buddy up, but it's a loose association of ionic acquaintances. They will mingle, partner briefly, and split amicably with no marriage contracts being signed.
I tend to talk about NaOH + citric acid => sodium citrate as if it's a permanent connection between the two ions. This kind of black and white explanation is an introductory way of explaining these things -- if I get too deep into the techno-geek-speak, people's eyes glaze over and rightly so. But in reality, the actual situation is rather more chemically polyamorous and flexible.
"...I think those salts will find the balance they like eventually no matter which lye you react them with. If the ions "migrate" from one to the other you still have your balance at the molecular level, so just do what's easy...."
That's my suggestion too. Whether you add the KOH first and NaOH second or vice versa or both at once, it's no matter. The citrate will mingle happily as it likes.
"...You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH..."
Spot on perfect advice -- I agree with Lee.
It doesn't take very long, Gent. What's happening is the citric acid is mostly disassociating (breaking apart) into a citrate ion and a hydrogen ion. When you dissolve NaOH in water you're doing much the same thing -- the sodium hydroxide dissociates into a sodium ion and a hydroxide ion -- and that's pretty fast, hey? Same with the citric acid.
When the two are mixed, some of the citrate and sodium ions will quickly buddy up, but it's a loose association of ionic acquaintances. They will mingle, partner briefly, and split amicably with no marriage contracts being signed.
I tend to talk about NaOH + citric acid => sodium citrate as if it's a permanent connection between the two ions. This kind of black and white explanation is an introductory way of explaining these things -- if I get too deep into the techno-geek-speak, people's eyes glaze over and rightly so. But in reality, the actual situation is rather more chemically polyamorous and flexible.
"...I think those salts will find the balance they like eventually no matter which lye you react them with. If the ions "migrate" from one to the other you still have your balance at the molecular level, so just do what's easy...."
That's my suggestion too. Whether you add the KOH first and NaOH second or vice versa or both at once, it's no matter. The citrate will mingle happily as it likes.
"...You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH..."
Spot on perfect advice -- I agree with Lee.
WHOA!!!! Looks like I found Shangri La! Ive been making soaps for a few years and only recently decided to try to make some shaving soaps.
Had my first, second, third and fourth siezes ever in a few hours.
From what Ive found so far in this thread and on this forum is that using NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using. Also the CP may not be the best.
So tomorrow Ill go to my workshop and grab some KOH and try the following recipe:
55% Tallow
25% Stearic
20% Coconut
Id like to add a tiny bit of lanolin if I get this batch down.
Thanks all, back to reading this whole thread
Had my first, second, third and fourth siezes ever in a few hours.
From what Ive found so far in this thread and on this forum is that using NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using. Also the CP may not be the best.
So tomorrow Ill go to my workshop and grab some KOH and try the following recipe:
55% Tallow
25% Stearic
20% Coconut
Id like to add a tiny bit of lanolin if I get this batch down.
Thanks all, back to reading this whole thread
Your basic problem is the stearic acid. It reacts instantly with lye, whether NaOH or KOH, so don't expect any improvement in the seizing issue by switching to KOH. What you're getting with KOH is higher water solubility and an overall softer soap.
Bottom line -- Any soap with any fatty acid as a main ingredient needs to be hot processed.
You could theoretically cold-process a shave soap recipe with only fats, even high-stearic fats. But it's a challenge to get enough stearic to make a decent a shave soap with just fats. Some people do it and I'm not saying it can't be done, but many use additional stearic acid instead to bump the stearic acid content in the finished soap.
I'm not quite sure why you're saying "NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using." Why wouldn't NaOH work with hard fats?
Bottom line -- Any soap with any fatty acid as a main ingredient needs to be hot processed.
You could theoretically cold-process a shave soap recipe with only fats, even high-stearic fats. But it's a challenge to get enough stearic to make a decent a shave soap with just fats. Some people do it and I'm not saying it can't be done, but many use additional stearic acid instead to bump the stearic acid content in the finished soap.
I'm not quite sure why you're saying "NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using." Why wouldn't NaOH work with hard fats?
Thanks for the reply Deeanna. That's my ignorance talking about NaOH. Even though I've been soaping for awhile, I haven't branched out into different fats or HP.
So I'm like a 37 year old freshman. I'm going to try rebatching the stuff I made today and then some hot process this weekend. Thanks a bunch.
So I'm like a 37 year old freshman. I'm going to try rebatching the stuff I made today and then some hot process this weekend. Thanks a bunch.
I was surprised the first time I used stearic acid in a soap too -- it ~is~ amazing how fast it reacts! Don't feel awkward about it -- we're all rookies in our "freshman" year when we try something new!
The only thing I could think about in regards to your comment about using NaOH with hard fats is that it can be harder to make a proper lather for shaving with an all-NaOH soap. But this type of soap does have the advantage of not being soft and possibly even sticky, so it travels well. And sometimes KOH is near impossible for some people to get, depending on the country they live in, so they're limited to making a shave soap with NaOH.
The old recipes (late 1800s, early 1900s) for shave soap often called for all hard fats -- tallow and coconut oil for example -- and were also made with NaOH, so this type of soap has some history behind it.
The only thing I could think about in regards to your comment about using NaOH with hard fats is that it can be harder to make a proper lather for shaving with an all-NaOH soap. But this type of soap does have the advantage of not being soft and possibly even sticky, so it travels well. And sometimes KOH is near impossible for some people to get, depending on the country they live in, so they're limited to making a shave soap with NaOH.
The old recipes (late 1800s, early 1900s) for shave soap often called for all hard fats -- tallow and coconut oil for example -- and were also made with NaOH, so this type of soap has some history behind it.
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LBussy
Well-Known Member
As do most of the "new" recipes. :wave:
