Milky liquid hand soap

[Possum_Magic]

Hi There,

I am making liquid soap for the second time and need some help please.

The first batch I made, using a different recipe (coconut oil only recipe), worked well.

I made up the following recipe and ran it through soap calc.

lye concentration 30%
superfat 0%

coconut oil 170.1g
olive oil 94.4g
Castor oil 113.4g
Jojoba oil 42.52g

Potassium Hydroxide 85.98g
Water 200.61g


I am making it in a crockpot.

After achieving trace I continued to cook for several hrs, stirring every 30 mins or so. It went from a stiff mash potato like substance, back to a thinner gloopy substance rather than a continuing to become more stiff as I was expecting. The batch eventually became translucent. I performed a few sample tests in distilled water- it was milky. each time. I turned off crockpot after 5 hrs cooking (not including time i took achieving trace). In morning i cooked for a few more hrs and it test samples revealed it was still milky. PH indicator paper revealed a PH of 8.

So, being impatient I decided to continue on my possibly perilous path to soap destruction. I started dilution phase at 20%. The soap is milky (not cloudy. watery with a creamy color) and a PH test reveals PH of 7.

So, what should I do at this point?

Chuck the batch?

Do I need to neutralize it?

What is the purpose of the sample test anyway? To test if caustic? To test for clarity? (apologies if this is a dumb question, but I am trying to learn).

I am experiencing difficulty finding a website that can "teach" me how to make liquid hand soap and understand the basic science behind it. Most sites just give directions/instructions (I am thankful they even exist!).

Is it milky because I did something wrong? or because of the nature of the oils I am using?

If milkiness is an aesthetic thing, then I am happy with milky. I just want a safe, effective hand soap.

TIA

I appreciate your help.

 

[shunt2011]

Jojoba oil has a tendency to make the soap cloudy. See some of the recent posts for liquid soap. They run through a lot of issues that can happen. Also, your soap won't be a 7 ph. A 0 superfat may be too drying for most. Most liquid soap is 1-3% superfat. Soap is generally 8.5-12 ph.

 

[Dorymae]

The test is only for clarity. A perfectly clear soap is very important to some, to others it doesn't matter a whiff. If it doesn't matter to you then you don't need to test.

The test you do need to do, and haven't is a zap test. That is the test for whether the soap is caustic. Now you cooked the heck out of that soap so chances are (unless you made a big mistake in calculations) that the soap is fine. You should always zap test. You can do this simply be wetting your finger, swiping it across the soap paste, then touching your tongue. I promise this doesn't hurt, if the soap is caustic you will get a zap on your tongue. It will be a sensation, not a taste, and it is immediate. If you question whether or not you were zapped, you weren't. It is an unmistakable sensation.

When a zap test is performed successfully, meaning no zap, you can stop cooking.

For the soap you currently have I would zap test then dilute and live with the cloudiness.

 

[Possum_Magic]

Jojoba oil has a tendency to make the soap cloudy. See some of the recent posts for liquid soap. They run through a lot of issues that can happen. Also, your soap won't be a 7 ph. A 0 superfat may be too drying for most. Most liquid soap is 1-3% superfat. Soap is generally 8.5-12 ph.

Thank you for your advice. Why can't it be PH 7. I just did another test. Looks like a 7 to me, possible 7.5. Definitely not an 8.5 or above (mind youtest strips are several yrs old, LOL).

Batch is still warm. I could add some castor oil to superfat it (1% of diluted soap).

Also, do you neutralize the soap in case there is too much lye? Do I need to do this in my case (I'm assuming because of the PH readings I am getting, then I don't need to neutralize??)

 

[seven]

ph strips are not reliable, zap test is better. no zap means no more active lye from what i understand.

your ph cannot be 7 coz a ph of 7 means it aint soap anymore.

 

[Susie]

If your soap has a pH of 7, it will be fatty acids floating on a watery alkaline layer. Hence, no longer soap.

I have not run your recipe through a calculator, but the issue is indeed the jojoba. It has too many unsaponifiables to make clear liquid soap.

I am going to reiterate seven's statement regarding pH strips. They are notoriously inaccurate for soap. Even if they were new, they would still not be correct.

Also, Dorymae is correct. The only safe/not safe determination for soap is the zap test.


You already have all the skills necessary to make liquid soap. You just need to give yourself time to understand and get used to the process. And that is what you have us for. Come ask questions. We are happy to help.

I could send you to several sites to watch videos, but they all use old fashioned methods that are no longer necessary, and will confuse you more.

As to what to do with that soap...use it. It is soap. You did not even need to cook it more. I don't even cook mine at all.

You are doing fine. Two batches of soap that worked well for a newbie is amazing.

 

[Possum_Magic]

If your soap has a pH of 7, it will be fatty acids floating on a watery alkaline layer. Hence, no longer soap.

I have not run your recipe through a calculator, but the issue is indeed the jojoba. It has too many unsaponifiables to make clear liquid soap.

I am going to reiterate seven's statement regarding pH strips. They are notoriously inaccurate for soap. Even if they were new, they would still not be correct.

Also, Dorymae is correct. The only safe/not safe determination for soap is the zap test.


You already have all the skills necessary to make liquid soap. You just need to give yourself time to understand and get used to the process. And that is what you have us for. Come ask questions. We are happy to help.

I could send you to several sites to watch videos, but they all use old fashioned methods that are no longer necessary, and will confuse you more.

As to what to do with that soap...use it. It is soap. You did not even need to cook it more. I don't even cook mine at all.

You are doing fine. Two batches of soap that worked well for a newbie is amazing.

Thank you!

Ok, I'll toss the PH strips in the garbage. I performed a zap test. Definitely no zap.

 

[CarolinePJCoram]

I'm so glad you posted this Possum! Yesterday I started testing a recipe for liquid soap which does exactly the same as yours - milky on dilution when cooked for five hours, with an adequately low ph to use. This is the recipe (in grams) Coconut oil (92 Deg) 200g, Sunflower oil 200g, Olive oil 100g, Potassium Hydroxide (flakes) 108g, Potassium Carbonate (granular) 10g, 180g water.

Everything went exactly as it should have done, proper trace, no splitting then forming a gel like mixture, but I could not get the mixture to clear. I had the pot on a double boiler at about 180 deg F for five hours and nothing changed. The ph was around 10 - 9.5 by the end of this boiling but the dilution showed cloudiness/milkiness. How can I get rid of this? Does this need more KOH perhaps? I saw mention on a website that KOH flakes can hold quite a bit of water, up to 17%. Help!

 

[Susie]

First of all, please understand that the zap test is the only safe/not safe determination for a soap. Regardless of whether it is NaOH or KOH. Please zap test that paste and let us know the results.

Next, any soap that has zap after 2 hours of cook has other problems than cloudiness.

After that, your pH is fine for liquid soap. A little on the high side, perhaps, but if it does not zap, it is safe.

Why did you add K2CO3?

I am going to run your recipe through a calculator, but I can't account for the K2CO3 in there. I know it is a strong alkali, so that will throw your recipe off. I can tell you already that you did not have enough water in there. You want at least 1:3 ratio of KOH to water in the paste stage.

OK, that soap is showing as safe before the addition of the K2CO3. I have no idea how much of each oil that is going to saponify. DeeAnna will probably have an answer, though.

Next, I need to know what kind of OO you used. Was it EVOO, virgin, pomace, or that cheap yellow stuff? I find that the more "virgin", the more cloudiness you are going to get. I love the cheap yellow stuff for liquid soapmaking. Yes, I am aware it is probably not 100% OO, but I have my recipes worked out using it, so every time I change, I have problems with the batches.

 

[Susie]

I forgot to mention to the OP, there are things you can do to clear soap up after the fact. The first is to give it a time out. Sequestering soap for a couple of weeks often lets the solids settle out, and any extra fats float to the top. If you put the liquid soap into a container with a big enough opening to give you some working room, you can spoon the fats off the top if you are VERY careful. And you can pour the clear soap away from the solids, again, if you are very careful.

After that, you can try adding some ETOH(like vodka) a little bit a day(maybe a tablespoon to a quart of soap) to help clear it a bit. Or, you can make a simple syrup with sugar/water at 1:1 and brought to a boil and add that at about 1 tablespoon/day. The operative word is OR. Pick one method and stick with it.

Also, please be sure you have that soap at a temperature of at least 76F or 24-25C before judging if it is cloudy or not. Cool temperatures can cloud soap.(the actual clouding temperature is probably lower, but that is the lowest I personally know that it will be clear)

 

[Possum_Magic]

I forgot to mention to the OP, there are things you can do to clear soap up after the fact. The first is to give it a time out. Sequestering soap for a couple of weeks often lets the solids settle out, and any extra fats float to the top. If you put the liquid soap into a container with a big enough opening to give you some working room, you can spoon the fats off the top if you are VERY careful. And you can pour the clear soap away from the solids, again, if you are very careful.

This has already started to happen! I woke up this morning to find my soap starting to clear! [Edit: starting to go from milky to cloudy. Obviously it will never be a clear soap, but today it bears less resemblance to a creamy glass of milk than it did yesterday]

Also, please be sure you have that soap at a temperature of at least 76F or 24-25C before judging if it is cloudy or not. Cool temperatures can cloud soap.(the actual clouding temperature is probably lower, but that is the lowest I personally know that it will be clear)

Thanks for the tip!


Also, to everyone who has posted thus far, I really appreciate the helpful advice.

 

[Susie]

That's what we are here for. Although, I must be honest with you, I am going to try to convert you to CP liquid soap fairly quickly. I am evil that way. :twisted:

 

[DeeAnna]

The potassium carbonate is supposed to make the LS paste less viscous (more liquidy) and so easier to stir. It is absolutely an OPTIONAL additive; it is definitely not required in order to make good liquid soap (LS).

As Susie mentioned, it is an alkali that needs to be neutralized ... or its alkalinity needs to be included as part of the lye and superfat calculations. If you don't do one or the other, you will end up with an alkali heavy paste.

It might have been more useful in the Failor days of LS making when one made a lye heavy paste, cooked the paste for hours, and then had to neutralize the excess alkali in the paste. Or maybe it's still useful, especially for large batches, but I've not tried it to know if it has any benefit with current day methods of LS making.

A few threads from the 2009-2010 era on SMF that mention potassium carbonate for LS:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=17000
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=14263
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=14143

 

[CarolinePJCoram]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I guess the question is now, how much KOH should I be using in this recipe if I leave the carbonate out... OR how much should I be using WITH the carbonate?

I'm not sure there is enough KOH (it is flaked and possibly not as water free as some on the market).

 

[Susie]

Let me introduce you to my liquid soap calculator:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

You just click KOH for the lye, give it between 1-3% superfat, the grams(rather than ounces), then click the down arrows to choose the oils you want. When you get done, just click the "click here when done" button. That is just for strictly KOH soap. I can't help you with the K2CO3 at all. If you need more help, just ask. We will be happy to help. That calculator already accounts for 90% pure KOH, no adjustments necessary.

I am not being mean, but you really need to run every recipe through a lye calculator for yourself, regardless of where you got it from. Typos happen even in the best books, and we are talking about your safety here.

 

[DeeAnna]

Just so's you know, it looks like the Summerbeemeadow calc is based on 94% KOH purity if my tests are correct -- http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=482806&postcount=323. The one that uses 90% is SoapCalc.

The problem with K2CO3 in soap is that it doesn't break down as easily as KOH without a long cook time and patience. That's why commercial soap makers of the late 1700s and early 1800s happily stopped making soap with K2CO3 when they discovered how to make a KOH solution from K2CO3, water, and slaked lime.

Neutralizing strictly by theoretical calculations would be based on 100% dissociation of the carbonate. That might not be very accurate, because I don't think potassium carbonate dissociates completely like KOH will. I suspect neutralizing K2CO3 in LS paste may have to be a trial-and-error thing.

 

[Susie]

Mea culpa. Thank you for the correction DeeAnna!

 

[CarolinePJCoram]

Just wanted to offer my thanks and an update. I dropped the Carbonate and used my own selection of oils with hand calculated KOH and guess what?! The Soap is nearly completely clear at 3hrs 20mins! I am one happy person! So thank you again so much for all your incredible advise.

 

[Susie]

But does it zap?

 

[CarolinePJCoram]

No it doesn't Susie