May-day; the wrong Lye

[Zeepmaker]

Hi DeeAnna and others
Thanks for your support
Just another question

"... KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403 :85*100..."

Yes, that's basically it, but just to be thorough, I ran this through my personal soap recipe calc to double check the numbers. To summarize the actual recipe you made:

coconut oil ... 200 g
olive ... 800 g
water ... 380 g
KOH ... 140 g at 85% purity

I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??

"I set up a new recipe with the same weights of coconut oil and olive. I chose 3% superfat and 25% lye concentration -- these are typical settings for a liquid soap. This new recipe:

coconut oil ... 200 g
olive ... 800 g
water ... 696 g
KOH ... 232 g at 85% purity

Since you already used 380 g water, you need to add 696-380 = 316 g water

Since you already used 140 g KOH, then you should add 232-140 = 92 g KOH

Mix the additional KOH and water together until the KOH is dissolved. Gently stir the lye solution into your soap paste until everything is well mixed. It will probably heat up. If I was making this soap, I would cover the soap well once it is well mixed, put it in a safe place out of reach of pets and children, and let it saponify overnight or longer. Carefully check for zap ( http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690 ). If it is zap free, the soap paste is done.

You can either store the soap as this thick paste or dilute part or all of it with distilled water. To dilute, follow the instructions in either of these tutorials:

No-neutralization Liquid Soap Tutorials:
Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
and: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Others may have suggestions or corrections that may be helpful.

I defenatly will give at go tonight to see if i can rescue my soap. And jump in the pool of liquid soap making.

What i could find online is that casle soap is not realy well defined and loads of people add what ever veg oil with the olive oil.
What i found with soapcalc that adding a bit of coconut oil would give a reasonable bar of soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

For ease of use here, Castile means 100% OO. Bastille is a high OO soap. While other places may well use Castile for a soap made with only plant-based oils, here that can just be called "soap" and includes soap with no olive oil!

 

[DeeAnna]

In your original post -- "... and used (i thought)140gram of sodium hydroxide which turned out to be Potassium hydroxide..."
In your last post -- "...I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??..."

According to my understanding of your original post, you used 140 grams of KOH. You THOUGHT it was NaOH, but it was actually KOH. Am I correct in this perception or did I misunderstand?

If I am correct that the 140 grams was KOH, then I just rewrote the recipe to show what you actually did, not what you thought you did. If I am misinformed in that the 140 grams was truly NaOH, then we need to re-think this problem.

***

You and Amimara are both right ... but each of you is right (or at least more correct) in different contexts.

Castile as used in a commercial sense is any soap made with only vegetable oils. It may not have even a drop of olive oil in it. This has been the commonly accepted definition in the consumer world since the early 1800s. There is at least one fairly famous USA court case that supports this definition. (James S. Kirk & Co. v. Federal Trade Commission, 1932)

That said, the purist's pre-1800s definition of castile is that it is a 100% olive oil soap. Many modern-day soapers use "castile" in this more specific sense, and that is usually the meaning intended when castile is discussed here.

This situation with castile is a little like Americans saying "Bandaid" to mean any adhesive bandage (sticking plaster?) or "Kleenex" to mean any facial tissue.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Thanks again.

In your original post -- "... and used (i thought)140gram of sodium hydroxide which turned out to be Potassium hydroxide..."
In your last post -- "...I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??..."

your absolute right with the 140gr KOH. Thanks for being that sharp.

Thanks for the Castile soap explanation.

I will tweak a little with the KOH to make a 0% superfat as Susie pointed out

cheers Nic

 

[shunt2011]

Thanks again.


your absolute right with the 140gr KOH. Thanks for being that sharp.

Thanks for the Castile soap explanation.

I will tweak a little with the KOH to make a 0% superfat as Susie pointed out

cheers Nic

Please read her post again. You don't want a 0% SF. You want a 3% SF. Then you will have a nice hand soap. 0 would be a bit too cleansing.

 

[DeeAnna]

Susie was talking about a 100% coconut oil for a household cleaning soap. If you made that kind of recipe for that purpose, you would want a zero superfat.

Your olive-CO soap will be best for bathing and hand washing. For this type of liquid soap, Shari (shunt) is right -- use a positive superfat.

A maximum of 3% superfat works well for most people. If your superfat is higher, the excess fats may separate from the diluted soap.

 

[cmzaha]

I absolutely would mix the KOH/water with the paste. I might do it with some heat so as to speed things up a bit, but that is my impatience talking. I was wondering what superfat you figured that at, but was too sleepy to figure it out just then.

ETA- And apparently too sleepy to read it properly, as you state it in there.

Yes, that is how much KOH and water to use. That method is what I would if I could get that paste to take it without heat. If I did not add it with heat, I might wait a few days to zap test just in case.

I will repeat myself, though. This will make some lovely hand washing soap or paste. I would not use it for laundry, dishes, or aphids as it does have some superfat that you don't want on clothes, dishes, or plants.

If I were making liquid soap for laundry, dishes, or plants, I would probably make 100% CO soap with 0% superfat.

Neem Oil is used on plants for pest control so I would not think the amount of unsaponified oil would hurt a plant. It could be tested on a small area. Not saying what we used it for but they were plants you did not want to kill. I also toss my buckets of water, from washing my soaping utensils, which would still include some over over the bank and even the white flies we used to fight are gone

 

[Zeepmaker]

update on wrong lye

Just finished mixing the new lye in the existing mix.
Went really fine. Took about ten minutes though a bit hard work. It mixed nicely into a creamy custard with a nice golden\greenish color. No need for extra heat. mixture was about 30C while mixing. mix is now standing in the airing cupboard temp 34C I will leave it there for at least the night and coming day zo the oils can saponate thoroughly.
Have problems uploading pics. from my phone to show the result.
keep you posted.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Failed the zap test, Question about insecticidal soap

"I set up a new recipe with the same weights of coconut oil and olive. I chose 3% superfat and 25% lye concentration -- these are typical settings for a liquid soap. This new recipe:

coconut oil ... 200 g
olive ... 800 g
water ... 696 g
KOH ... 232 g at 85% purity

Since you already used 380 g water, you need to add 696-380 = 316 g water

Since you already used 140 g KOH, then you should add 232-140 = 92 g KOH

Mix the additional KOH and water together until the KOH is dissolved. Gently stir the lye solution into your soap paste until everything is well mixed. It will probably heat up. If I was making this soap, I would cover the soap well once it is well mixed, put it in a safe place out of reach of pets and children, and let it saponify overnight or longer. Carefully check for zap

Followed this recipe.
Paste has been standing now for about 48 hours and has failed the zap test now twice. It defenatly tastes after 9 volt battery, maybe even a higher voltage!
A possible problem could be I'm using a scale from 0-100 grams and by using bigger quantities i have to weigh a 100gr every time and add this to bowl for mixing. (see first picture)

As i was trigger happy and forgotten about the zap test i already diluted a small batch 1 paste : 0.75 water see result (2nd picture)

I guess I beter don't use this Liquid!

any suggestions how to proceed.
Leave it for a while?
Heating again for a while?

I think I'm learning it the hard way:crazy:. My next batch LS will be with glycerin and KOH

About Insecticidal soap
By the way Susie if you are reading this post do you have any suggestions on which oils of fats to use for a insecticidal soap. A lot of internet sites (which probably repeat each other) suggest Castile= olive oil becaus of it softnes. Can you think of think of cheaper oils which would do the same trick.

Wikipedia is writing:
Insecticidal soap should be based on long-chain fatty acids (10–18 carbon atoms),[1] because shorter-chain fatty acids tend to be damaging for the plant (phytotoxicity).

Table 1. Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acids Long-chain
PUFAs Name Abbr. Structure Food Source#
Omega-3
alpha-linolenic acid ALA 18:3n-3
Walnuts, flaxseed oil,soybean, and canola oil
Omega-6
linoleic acid LA 18:2n-6
Corn, safflower, soybean,cottonseed, and sunflower oils

I found this table some where on the net which lists a lot of long chain fatty acid oils/fat.

Any one able to give an idea which solo oil/fat or mixed oils/fats would make a nice LS.

Thanks again for all your support I have got until now.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Followed this recipe.
Paste has been standing now for about 48 hours and has failed the zap test now twice. It defenatly tastes after 9 volt battery, maybe even a higher voltage!
A possible problem could be I'm using a scale from 0-100 grams and by using bigger quantities i have to weigh a 100gr every time and add this to bowl for mixing. (see first picture)

As i was trigger happy and forgotten about the zap test i already diluted a small batch 1 paste : 0.75 water see result (2nd picture)

I guess I beter don't use this Liquid!

any suggestions how to proceed.
Leave it for a while?
Heating again for a while?

You could try getting it a little hot. My concern about this plan was that your KOH was probably stronger than 85%. Normally you would assume the higher potency to be safe. If the KOH was more like the typical 10% moisture, then there is really no superfat in the formula.

On the other hand, it can't be that far off and you might still be able to get it to neutralize on its own. If not, you can add something to neutralize it. No need to give up.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Thanks I'll put the paste in the airing cupboard 37-40 Celsius for while and will check once in a while.

 

[Susie]

I used my 100% coconut oil soap. Leave it on a couple of hours, then rinse off with plain water (lots of plain water). The side benefit of using soap to kill the aphids is that it makes the soil under the plant extra permeable to water. So that the roots get a really good drink rather than the water pooling and running off.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Thanks Susie for sharing your experience.
I've put several oils through the Soapcalc calculator and conclude for myself all oils with long chain fatty acids are very conditioning and little cleansing. Coconut is a tough cleanser and nice bubly.
Wat I'm gonna do is make different batches of oils from: Sunflower, Canola, Olive (got already a little stack waiting to pass the zapp test), Tallow (i've got some waiting fot being transformed to soap) and Coconut.
I will mix some of the LS from different oils together according the weather condition of the day.
As I live in what they call: South We(s)t England I'm having more problems with to much wet in the summer than to dry (like Texas)

 

[Soapmaker145]

About Insecticidal soap
By the way Susie if you are reading this post do you have any suggestions on which oils of fats to use for a insecticidal soap. A lot of internet sites (which probably repeat each other) suggest Castile= olive oil becaus of it softnes. Can you think of think of cheaper oils which would do the same trick.

Not Susie but FWIW, I've been using the LS I made with tallow/soybean oil for my insecticidal soap. I add a bit of neem oil to it. It is about as cheap as it gets. I spray all my indoor plants including the bay laurel, Kaffir lime, and loquat trees, various herbs and galangal among others. We use many of them for food. So far, none of them was adversely affected.

If you are dealing with aphids on outdoor plants, buy some ladybugs. They'll clean them out in no time.

Before I made LS, I used store bought insecticidal soap, then I made my own using store bought castile soap. The LS I make is practically free in comparison.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Hi Soapmaker 145
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Yes making my own LS insecticidal soap is a lot cheaper £2,00 versus £10.00
What I forgot to tell that the early aphid attacks come early in the season. The trees have very little developing leaves and very tender in this stage. The early aphid attack cause very quick a lot of damage in reducing photosynthesis activity with long lasting negative effect for the tree for the whole growing season and years beyond as I work with rootstocks, grafting,etc.That is why I need a soft soap.
Later in the season I would dare to spray a strong cleansing soap as the leaves have hardened enough to with stand strong soap.
I like the lady bugs, soap does not harm ladybugs BUT temperatures are low in British spring season The low 50F to 59 F and if we are lucky a day of 68F once in five years.
Lady bugs need higher temperatures to multiply because the young lady bug larvae are the very hungry consumers of the aphids.
I will add for sure a little essential oil, every little helps.

 

[Soapmaker145]

Hi Soapmaker 145
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Yes making my own LS insecticidal soap is a lot cheaper £2,00 versus £10.00
What I forgot to tell that the early aphid attacks come early in the season. The trees have very little developing leaves and very tender in this stage. The early aphid attack cause very quick a lot of damage in reducing photosynthesis activity with long lasting negative effect for the tree for the whole growing season and years beyond as I work with rootstocks, grafting,etc.That is why I need a soft soap.
Later in the season I would dare to spray a strong cleansing soap as the leaves have hardened enough to with stand strong soap.
I like the lady bugs, soap does not harm ladybugs BUT temperatures are low in British spring season The low 50F to 59 F and if we are lucky a day of 68F once in five years.
Lady bugs need higher temperatures to multiply because the young lady bug larvae are the very hungry consumers of the aphids.
I will add for sure a little essential oil, every little helps.

Here are few things that I found helpful from my limited experience:
-Delay fertilizing the plants in the spring until you have some leaves on the plant. It will limit the tasty food that aphids like. Even a 2 week delay will help. If you have a horticultural expert near you, they can help you with the timing.
-Spray the trees with water with a little pressure. The spray of water alone will get them off the leaves and they die. They are soft bodied and get hurt easily. It will help you control the infestation. Once the leaves are a little bigger, you can add the soap and the neem, increasing concentrations as you go.
-Get the ladybugs out as soon as you can. Adult ladybugs are voracious eaters. Each eats 1000's of aphids a day. They will clean up what is left and minimize next year's infestation. The larvae are just icing on the cake. A few years of ladybugs and you'll hardly see any more aphids.
-Tallow, soybean, or any other cheap oil work great. They have the longer chain fatty acids. The potassium salts are the ones you want. Your mistake was a lucky one.

I used to pay $30 every time I sprayed my garden. I would have to spray several times in the spring. $30 worth of my liquid soap will last me a lifetime.

Keep in mind I have a postage stamp sized garden in a big city that I keep chemical free. It is packed with a lot of edible fruits and vegetables. The aphids used to hit the currant bushes in early spring really badly and spread everywhere causing a lot of damage. Two years of ladybugs and we barely notice them now. I still get some aphids but only on the upper leaves of the currant bushes. I spray or wipe them with the soap/neem solution once or twice. The resident ladybugs take care of the rest. HTH.

 

[Zeepmaker]

Dear all.
Took a while to come back.

It took my soap about THREE month!!! to pass the zap test. This batch will soon be finished and I'm preparing my self now to make a new batch of LS 80% olive oil-20% coconut oil

 

[DeeAnna]

Good grief -- that took a long time! You are a very patient person! I am glad it finally turned out well. It looks like your KOH has a higher purity than what we assumed.

Sometimes a person has to learn by doing. It seems this was one of those times.