Lye Mix and Oils Temperature- Does it really matter?

[yearomare]

There was something else going on. Using cool lye into warmer oils is not the problem. I sometimes add room temp lye to oils at 110 or a bit warmer. Never had a problem.

It was indeed odd, and I didn't expect it to happen. I think my oils were probably a lot hotter than 110, as I was doing hot process soap. I ended up putting the entire batch into a ziploc bag (after it cooled) and it's still very liquid. So odd.

 

[Dawni]

It was indeed odd, and I didn't expect it to happen. I think my oils were probably a lot hotter than 110, as I was doing hot process soap. I ended up putting the entire batch into a ziploc bag (after it cooled) and it's still very liquid. So odd.

Maybe it was just plain liquid with no lye? LOL sorry about that but I just came from somewhere else here and read something about someone forgetting to add the lye and not getting trace.

Anyway.... I'm a newbie but I have not at one time taken temperatures. Should I?!

I wonder if that's the reason I can't get a batch that I'm totally satisfied with.

I have only been doing HP so far, and I read somewhere (I need to check where) that since everything is going to be heated up anyway it doesn't really matter what temperatures are when you pour the lye into the oils.

My oils have been heating on high to get the butters melted, then I switch it to low and pour the solution in when my lye container is touchable.

I live in a humid, tropical country btw and the house doesn't have central AC, just a multitude of fans lol

 

[DeeAnna]

"...it doesn't really matter what temperatures are when you pour the lye into the oils...."

In a certain sense, this is correct. But as I pointed out earlier, you can take this idea too far -- one can get into serious trouble if the temps are so high that the water in the lye solution vaporizes under the layer of melted fat. HP makers are more likely to get into this kind of situation, compared with CP soap makers who have to be more cautious about the starting temp of the soap batter.

"...My oils have been heating on high to get the butters melted..."

You might want to start checking temps before you mix things together. Even a quick check with the palm of the hand can be helpful. If the phone rings or a family member needs attention or you're tired or a little distracted, you could get into trouble if the fats are too hot and you don't check first.

 

[Dawni]

Hmm... I'll have to add an infrared thermometer to my list of must-buys then.

Oh I also don't mean I don't check at all.
I just meant I don't with any kind of thermometer.
My pain tolerance is extremely high lol so over the years I've learned to gauge temps with my hands, like you mentioned and that's what I've been doing.
It's the reason I melt oils and butters much before I make my lye solution. I feel it cools down somewhat when I switch to low, then I wait a bit more then add my lye solution, which I've checked with my hand above the container as well.
I'm no human thermometer but since it's been said that they don't need to be too close in temps (within 10 degrees or such), I figure a similar heat is safe enough.

I hope that's OK? Buying an IR thermometer might take a while lol...

 

[DeeAnna]

I suggested using the palm of one's hand in my previous post. I wouldn't have said that if I didn't think that was a valid thing to do. So, yeah, it's okay.

Remember IR thermometers only measure surface temperature. They will not tell you the temp below the surface. If the material is not well stirred right before you check, an IR temp reading won't be as accurate as you might want. With HP soap and other thick, pasty things, it's most likely going to say the temp is cooler than it really is.

 

[Dawni]

Yes, I mentioned that you mentioned it hehe, I guess I was just clarifying the rest of my "procedure."

Noted on the IR thermometer and surface temps, too. Thanks @DeeAnna

 

[earlene]

I like my IntraRed Thermometer. I use it to check the temps of my oven when I do CPOP. Sometimes I use it while mixing the batter, too, but not anywhere near as often as when I was new. I also have a regular oven thermometer, freezer thermometers, refrigerator thermometers, meat thermometer and a candy thermometer. They all get used as needed.

Also my background professions required me to use thermometers on a daily basis, so it's something that just made a whole lot of sense to me to use when I read it in soap making literature. Granted there's a lot more leeway than some of the literature suggests, but for some folks who don't feel comfortable without precise instructions that's a good thing.

Have you ever tried to convince such a person to add a 'little of this' and 'a little of that' or 'spice to taste' when cooking and it completely throws them off balance? Some folks really need precision, so I think it's okay to allow them their need for precise instructions and precise measurements, even when it comes to temperature. Just as it's okay to say, no you don't really need a thermometer when making soap. But there are some who may never feel comfortable without a back-up thermometer and that's okay.

 

[mawarliar]

I did experienced once, using a hot lye plus a hot oil in a crockpot.. ( they both average in the same temperature ) and ends up having a volcano..
I did make a hp soap, so having a volcano with about half the recipe going to waste and the other half being a failure..

I honestly think that temperature is important but not crucial that it has to be precisely mentioned..

 

[maria kavathas]

please help, first time making cp soap everything went wrong
the oils and lye water were at 80f trace were very delayed, finally soap is in individual molds tree days later still very soft impossible to unfold. the other strange thing that happen is the lye I used I discover later on, does not sting to touch. I made some lye water to tested out and put my finger in it , nothing happent!!!! Is it posable that the lye is inactive?
When I was making the soap lye water got to 200f temp. I took I little soap to test it and it makes suds like soap but is very very soft, what can I do to save all these oils?

can you have inactive lye?

 

[atiz]

please help, first time making cp soap everything went wrong
the oils and lye water were at 80f trace were very delayed, finally soap is in individual molds tree days later still very soft impossible to unfold. the other strange thing that happen is the lye I used I discover later on, does not sting to touch. I made some lye water to tested out and put my finger in it , nothing happent!!!! Is it posable that the lye is inactive?
When I was making the soap lye water got to 200f temp. I took I little soap to test it and it makes suds like soap but is very very soft, what can I do to save all these oils?

More people will be able to help if you post your whole recipe.
Lye water does not necessarily sting to the touch; if it spills on you you may not even notice till minutes later when it starts burning. What kind of lye did you use? Where did you get it?
I have heard some soaps needing more than 3 days to set up, although it is quite unusual.

ETA: lye can become weaker with time if it absorbs too much moisture. Was it lumpy at all?

 

[maria kavathas]

the lye was purchased from essential depot .it was in a 2 lb container very securely closed and it was not lumpy at all , I open the container and it pour out very smoothly. the other thing that it it is strange I hold a three day soft soap I'm my hands and it does not burn
the recipe as follows
coconut oil 25%
canola oil 20%
shea butter 20%
lard 30%castor oil 0.156%
total oils 50 oz
water 15 oz
lye 6.965 oz
fo 5 oz
is it posable that the temp was very low (80s) that cause this to happen, and is there anything I can do to fix it?

 

[SunRiseArts]

OMG Never ever again put your finger in the lye water. You are very lucky you did not get hurt. Your skin can open up, like when you put fire to plastic.

In your recipe you have your oils in % and your water by weight? What percentage of water did you use?

You can put them in the freezer for a couple of hours and then unmold. If they are ok, I am guessing they still might need a very long curing time. They will harden eventually if your recipe is ok. In my experience canola oils takes forever to trace, but I am sure others here will say something else.

From what I gather your oils do not add to 100%. And even with those percentages your water should be around 35 ounces, and your lye around 13. If this is the case, your soaps are going to be so oily, you probably would not want to use them.

I would also suggest to start with a smaller batch next time to test your recipe.

Soaping at 80F I do not think is the problem. Many soap at room temperature.

 

[DeeAnna]

@maria kavathas -- I have to say you are fairly likely to get "false trace" when soaping this recipe at that temperature. Shea, lard, and coconut oil all solidify above 80 F and these fats make up 70% of the recipe.

"...lye water got to 200f temp..."

Then your alkali is fine. But you should double check the alkali you have -- do you have NaOH or KOH? Let us know, please.

***

I agree with SunRiseArts -- never, never stick a body part in lye solution. That's really dangerous.

Since you are a new soap maker, my advice is to make smaller recipes of around 16 oz or 500 grams of fats at the most. Several small batches will get you more experience than one large one. And if you screw up a small batch, you haven't wasted as much of your ingredients.

When giving recipes, please give EVERYTHING in percentages OR in weights. Please don't mix the two. When people have to convert units back and forth, the confusion and inconvenience makes it less likely you will get the help you want.

It's also best when asking for help to start a new thread to ask a new question. That way more people will actually look at it and be more likely to respond. You have a procedural or recipe problem that isn't necessarily all about temperature.

 

[maria kavathas]

thank you for all you response and advice, I put the soaps in the freezer to try to unmold them.
my recipe is with sodium hydroxide

water 15 oz
NaOH 6,965 oz
FO 4.69 oz
coconut oil 12.5 oz
canola oil 10 oz
lard 15 oz
castor oil 2.5 oz
shea butter 10 oz

When I unmold the soaps how would I know if they are good or not? as I stated before I handle them without gloves and they don't burn or sting my hands!!

 

[atiz]

thank you for all you response and advice, I put the soaps in the freezer to try to unmold them.
my recipe is with sodium hydroxide

water 15 oz
NaOH 6,965 oz
FO 4.69 oz
coconut oil 12.5 oz
canola oil 10 oz
lard 15 oz
castor oil 2.5 oz
shea butter 10 oz

When I unmold the soaps how would I know if they are good or not? as I stated before I handle them without gloves and they don't burn or sting my hands!!

Your soap, even if soft, may have mostly finished the saponification process, that's why it does not sting. To know whether it is good, you should zap test it for lye heaviness (make it moist and touch your tongue to it quickly -- if it zaps like a battery, then wait for more cure and test again. If it does not zap, then it is safe).

Yes, you might have had false trace. Or might have mismeasured something.

A few strange things that I just noticed, although I did not run your recipe through a lye calculator:
1) your recipe above (post #51) does not add up to 100%. So something is missing?
2) This seems like a huge batch -- 50 oz?? It is best to start out with relatively small ones -- I'd say between 16--32 oz -- so that if something goes wrong you don't waste a lot of ingredients. (ETA: as @DeeAnna said.)
3) Even with such a big batch, your FO seems to be very high, almost 10%. Did you check the safe usage rate? I think most people use around 5--6%, sometimes even less.

 

[maria kavathas]

hi atiz,
my total oil is 50 oz
the FO is a bit on the heavy side, but I figure with the lye water the total weight is around 72 oz
Therefore 4.688 oz of FO is approximately 6%
I agree that the 50 oz batch is a bit on the big side but all family and friends are waiting for these soaps.
My question is if I did had a false trace , how this would effect the end resold of the soap?

 

[earlene]

I really suggest wearing gloves when unmolding as well. If it wasn't fully saponified yet, it would still be harsh on your skin, even if it doesn't feel that way immediately. But not only for your own protection, but also to prevent spreading contaminants on the soap that can lead to DOS (dreaded orange spots - that's a whole other topic on its own.)

Obviously I second all precautions about putting bare skin into lye water; way too risky. Perhaps you need to review lye safety procedures a bit more.

https://www.soapguild.org/how-to/make-soap/lye-safety.php

Also since this is your first soap, perhaps you are not familiar with the zap test. Here is a link on how to properly perform the zap test.

 

[DeeAnna]

Your recipe checks out okay. It should make CP soap that is nicely hard within 12-24 hours after being poured in the mold. I have no idea why it's so soft except you have kept the soap very cool. Is there a reason why you felt you needed to do that?

"...but all family and friends are waiting for these soaps..."

Your experience here should be a clue that you might not be ready to give your soap away just yet. The old saying holds true with soap making -- the hurrier I go, the slower I get.

"...My question is if I did had a false trace , how this would effect the end resold of the soap?..."

I don't understand what you are asking. Please explain.

 

[earlene]

I believe it was a typo and the word 'resold' was supposed to be 'result', but I could be wrong.

 

[Susie]

1. You are NOT doing your family and friends any favors by giving them soap when you have not learned how to make proper soap yet. Nor have you learned what your soap will be like when properly cured. Do NOT give away soap until you have batches you are happy with at least 8 weeks of cure. Make smaller batches, as everyone has said, until you learn how to make good soap. We all went through that phase, but we all learned better.

2. You have false trace as @DeeAnna says. You must soap warmer. Your soap, as it stands now, is unusable. If it has only been a couple of days, I would zap test. If it is zapless, I would throw the batch away. If it zaps, I would toss it in a crockpot and HP it. False trace (and you should be capable of looking this term up yourself) is when your hard oils resolidify because the temperature is too low. It makes the soap look like trace, but it is only lard and shea hardening up. Which is exactly what you are looking at.

3. If you are sticking bare skin in lye water, you obviously missed important safety information. I challenge you to go research the subject carefully.