Lye Deposits in CP Soap

[AliBx]

I made a CP soap slab two days ago!

Upon cutting the soap slap yesterday, I began to see yellow/white liquid inside the soap. I immediately knew it was alkaline. I know for a fact it is. How did this happen? I asked myself. Did I not stickblend my solution well? Anyhow, after much thought, I thought it best to rebatch this set of soap bars. I'm not comfortable giving them out after 8 weeks of curing.

What are your thoughts on the rebatch? Should I do this or just throw out the soap bars.

 

[AliOop]

Hello @AliBx from another Ali

So, how do you know for a fact that the liquid is alkaline? Did you test it, and if so, how?

To me those spots look like they cold be undissolved honey, unmixed FO/EO, or any number of things. We can definitely troubleshoot with you if you want to provide your complete recipe, with all additives, and a description of the process you used to combine everything.

 

[DeeAnna]

The variation in color appears as if your soap was not fully mixed when you poured it into the mold. Like AliOop said, more information is needed if you want good advice. The irregular color might be from streaks of fragrance, honey, colorant, solid fat, or who knows.

If there is some free liquid in or on the soap, I'd agree it's probably alkaline, but it's not just "lye". Any liquid is going to be a mix of whatever liquids you used to make the soap, not just dissolved NaOH.

If you "know for a fact" about something, then it would be good to explain how you determined this. Again to get good advice.

 

[AliBx]

Yeah! I guess I don't know for a fact…lol. It just appears to be the answer.

Ingredients!!!
Coconut Oil
Olive Oil
Castor Oil
Avocado Oil
All Veg Shortening
Shea & Cocoa Butter
Honey
Maple Syrup
Coconut Milk
Clove EO
Clove Grounds (like a teaspoon)
S. Lactate
S. Hydroxide
Distilled Water
Mica Powder

 

[Relle]

Yeah! I guess I don't know for a fact…lol. It just appears to be the answer.

Ingredients!!!
Coconut Oil
Olive Oil
Castor Oil
Avocado Oil
All Veg Shortening
Shea & Cocoa Butter
Honey
Maple Syrup
Coconut Milk
Clove EO
Clove Grounds (like a teaspoon)
S. Lactate
S. Hydroxide
Distilled Water
Mica Powder

Please provide recipe with percentages or weights of ingredients. Still guessing without that info.

 

[AliOop]

I was pretty sure those brown wet spots were honey, molasses, or syrup. We have some good threads here that you can read to learn how to incorporate it completely into your soap, and not end up with spots.

As an aside, hopefully you checked the safe usage rate on clove EO. As a known skin sensitizer, it's not typically used much in soap, or only in very tiny amounts. It also accelerates the soap batter like crazy, which could be why your ingredients didn't get well mixed.

 

[AliBx]

Please provide recipe with percentages or weights of ingredients. Still guessing without that info.

Sure!!!

In ounces:

Olive Oil - 51
Castor Oil - 6.8
Avocado Oil - 3.4
All Veg Shortening - 54.4
Coconut Oil - 54.4
Shea & Cocoa Butter -10 & 10
Honey - 5 tsp
Maple Syrup - 5 tsp
Coconut Milk - 13.5
Clove EO - 7.65
Clove Grounds - 2 tsp
S. Lactate - 1.2
S. Hydroxide - 26.57
Distilled Water - 52.29 (water discount)
Mica Powder - 7 tsp

 

[DeeAnna]

So almost 136 ounces (8 1/2 pounds / 3.8 kilograms) of fats. Is this a typical batch size for you?

Not sure why you're using clove EO at the rate you're using it. Have you researched the safe dosage rates as recommended by IFRA and others?

Clove bud and clove leaf are two types of clove EO. Essential Oil Safety by Tisserand and Young recommends a max limit for dermal use of 0.5% for clove bud and 0.6% for clove leaf because both have major cautions for use on the skin.

If you base the EO dosage on the fat weight (as many soap makers do), this batch should have had a max of about 0.7 oz, not 7.65 oz for safe use on skin.

Not to mention the eugenol content in either type of clove EO will greatly accelerate trace, as others are saying. That will make it difficult to throughly mix a batch this large so it's uniformly blended.

 

[AliBx]

Yes I did look at the IFRA dosage rate.

I’m aware that clove bud and clove leaf are two types of clove EO, and I use the IFRA recommendation.

However, I see what you're saying. I'll throw this batch out.

 

[AliBx]

Hello!

Could you help me understand this please.

In reviewing the calculations provided by the web-based company that adheres to IFRA guidelines, I encountered a significant discrepancy regarding the maximum usage of Clove Leaf Essential Oil.

Historically, I have relied on their calculations to guide the allowable concentrations of essential oils in our formulations for my family (without any issues). The total weight of the oils and butters we used in this case amounts to 191 oz; it’s a monthly production of this quantity for us. Upon entering this weight into their system, their calculated maximum usage for Category 9 indicated 10.96 oz, while the suggested medium scent was listed as 8.59 oz.

Upon verifying the IFRA standards for Clove Leaf Essential Oil, I confirmed a maximum concentration of 0.5%. converting this percentage to a decimal (0.5 / 100 = 0.005), my calculation for the maximum EO amount in our total weight yields 0.955 oz of Clove Essential Oil (0.005 x 191 = 0.955 oz).

The stark difference between this calculation and figures provided by this well-known company raises concerns. It is imperative to clarify whether the calculations I have performed are erroneous above, or if there is a potential misalignment in this company’s data.

Thanks.

 

[DeeAnna]

I have no idea why there's that discrepancy. You aren't naming names, so we can't go to that website to make an assessment. Maybe the information was typed in wrong. Maybe the company doesn't know any better. Maybe the product is not an EO, but instead a safer FO. Hard to say.

When it comes to the use of "iffy" ingredients such as this clove EO situation, I like to be well informed and typically don't rely on just one information source. There is a lot of misinformation out there, so I "trust but verify."

 

[dibbles]

@AliBx A lot of people here use EO Calc which might give you another option when checking usage rates. It is updated with IFRA changes, and I have found it to be reliable.

 

[AliOop]

Hello!

Could you help me understand this please.

In reviewing the calculations provided by the web-based company that adheres to IFRA guidelines, I encountered a significant discrepancy regarding the maximum usage of Clove Leaf Essential Oil.

Historically, I have relied on their calculations to guide the allowable concentrations of essential oils in our formulations for my family (without any issues). The total weight of the oils and butters we used in this case amounts to 191 oz; it’s a monthly production of this quantity for us. Upon entering this weight into their system, their calculated maximum usage for Category 9 indicated 10.96 oz, while the suggested medium scent was listed as 8.59 oz.

Upon verifying the IFRA standards for Clove Leaf Essential Oil, I confirmed a maximum concentration of 0.5%. converting this percentage to a decimal (0.5 / 100 = 0.005), my calculation for the maximum EO amount in our total weight yields 0.955 oz of Clove Essential Oil (0.005 x 191 = 0.955 oz).

The stark difference between this calculation and figures provided by this well-known company raises concerns. It is imperative to clarify whether the calculations I have performed are erroneous above, or if there is a potential misalignment in this company’s data.

Thanks.

More than one online fragrance calculator gives a generic percentage for all fragrance types - just like all the soap calculators default to a "suggested" percentage. It sounds like you might have used one of those? Either way, contacting the company to inform them of this problem sounds wise.

As suggested by Dibbles, it is best to use a calculator like EOCalc that gives a percentage specific to the EO. The other option is to use the manufacturer's posted IFRA rate for that specific item. Then enter that number into your soap calc of choice.

 

[paradisi]

It is confusing; I just looked at the most recent IFRA (51st, 2023), and yep the isoeugenol limit for category 9 is 0.21%, but eugenol has gone up to 4.9%.

... ah, it looks like the limit on furfural is the governing thing, 0.001%, and the average clove oil contains about 0.2%. 180 oz oils roughly, would net less than an ounce permissible under IFRA.

I haven't used it in years as it's such a beast to work with.

Here's where fo's can serve us, as they can use scents where those molecules are stripped out. Not the same aroma, but meeting those safety guidelines.

 

[AliBx]

I have no idea why there's that discrepancy. You aren't naming names, so we can't go to that website to make an assessment. Maybe the information was typed in wrong. Maybe the company doesn't know any better. Maybe the product is not an EO, but instead a safer FO. Hard to say.

When it comes to the use of "iffy" ingredients such as this clove EO situation, I like to be well informed and typically don't rely on just one information source. There is a lot of misinformation out there, so I "trust but verify."

Brambleberry

 

[AliBx]

I have no idea why there's that discrepancy. You aren't naming names, so we can't go to that website to make an assessment. Maybe the information was typed in wrong. Maybe the company doesn't know any better. Maybe the product is not an EO, but instead a safer FO. Hard to say.

When it comes to the use of "iffy" ingredients such as this clove EO situation, I like to be well informed and typically don't rely on just one information source. There is a lot of misinformation out there, so I "trust but verify."

There's definitely a discrepancy with Brambleberry. I'm so confused.

 

[AliBx]

@AliBx A lot of people here use EO Calc which might give you another option when checking usage rates. It is updated with IFRA changes, and I have found it to be reliable.

Thank you so much for this information.

It is confusing; I just looked at the most recent IFRA (51st, 2023), and yep the isoeugenol limit for category 9 is 0.21%, but eugenol has gone up to 4.9%.

... ah, it looks like the limit on furfural is the governing thing, 0.001%, and the average clove oil contains about 0.2%. 180 oz oils roughly, would net less than an ounce permissible under IFRA.

I haven't used it in years as it's such a beast to work with.

Here's where fo's can serve us, as they can use scents where those molecules are stripped out. Not the same aroma, but meeting those safety guidelines.

Yes! Very confusing. I'm never going to work with that EO again. First time for everything.

 

[paradisi]

Thank you so much for this information.

Yes! Very confusing. I'm never going to work with that EO again. First time for everything.

The easiest way I've found to deal with all this is to download the most recent Annex, or squint at it online, and note the average levels in the oils I use (if the mfr. doesn't list them) and then find the IFRA doc. for that chemical.
I enter those in a spreadsheet with approximate finished weight of a batch, the chemical % in the oil, the permissible level (s), and calculate the max permissible in that batch.

That sounds horrid, but once one has the oils or blends one uses set up in the sheet, then with IFRA changes (sigh), it's easy to input the new levels.

 

[paradisi]

Another good reference for limits is the essential oils list on the goodscents company site, click on the oil & scroll down to Safety in Use, it will have the pertinent amounts (average). Their suggestions for amount in the fragrance compound are for fine fragrance though not soap, so I ignore those.

I see they are only up to the 49th but the content info is still good.

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/es1014452.html

 

[AliBx]

The easiest way I've found to deal with all this is to download the most recent Annex, or squint at it online, and note the average levels in the oils I use (if the mfr. doesn't list them) and then find the IFRA doc. for that chemical.
I enter those in a spreadsheet with approximate finished weight of a batch, the chemical % in the oil, the permissible level (s), and calculate the max permissible in that batch.

That sounds horrid, but once one has the oils or blends one uses set up in the sheet, then with IFRA changes (sigh), it's easy to input the new levels.

Awesome advice. Thank you for this information. I will definitely need all of this for the future.